Strange use of present perfect - grey zone?

Question

Hello allWhat is the difference between this uses of present perfect simple/continuous. Textbooks usually recommend that students should use present perfect continuous for actions which take place for a longer period of time and are still on going or they have been until now. However there always is noted that sometimes it is even possible to use present perfect simple instead of present perfect continuous in the same context. As a non- native speaker I find the simple form of present perfect (in this case only) very strange and I am never sure whether or not I can use it instead of the present perfect continuous "version" which is the only tense I use for expressing these ideas.I´ll give you a classic example + below you can see different structures which I think they  fall into the same category.- I have been working here for 10 years./ I have worked here for 10 years.You may wonder why I am not sure sometimes. That´s all because some books say that it is not possible to use present perfect simple with some verbs ( in this context). The problem is that they don´t mention these forbidden verbs. They just usually mention two or three examples which are common - live, work etc.I have already asked a few people (native speakers and non- native ones as well) and their opinion differs significantly:One group of people says that in their opinion present perfect simple draws attention to the length of time, while the continuous form focuses on the experience of the person doing the working, praying or whatever.The second group of people says the following: Present perfect continuous put a bit more emphasise on the length of time than the present perfect simple.Examples with present perfect simple. I have prayed for you all my life.I have repaired cars for 20 years.It wasn´t a difficult decision. I have played for so long.......And some examples with past perfect simple.I had been working in the Masai Mara in Kenya trying to photograph a leopard family, a mother with two cups. I had followed them with my camera for many months.There were signs that Sir Charles had stood there for some time.In all these sentences I would find more natural to use present perfect continuous. What´s more as you can see from my examples the same sort of "problem" is possible to find in past perfect simple/continuous tenses as well What´s your opinion on this? Which opinion do you like more. The opinion of the first group of people or the second? Are there any verbs which you don´t use with the present perfect in the case where you use it instead of p.p. continuous? What´s the difference between the tenses here?( in this use)I see there may are too many questions in the end but I would really, really appreciate your help here. I am afraid that my teacher can´t help me with this

Fivejedjon · Accepted Answer

There is no simple answer, because there is considerable overlap between the two forms. Much depends on how the speaker views the situation at the moment of speaking. Genrally speaking the continuous form places more emphasis on the duration of the situation. However, with verbs such as live and work which, in themselves, denote a situation/state that normally has considerable duration, the distinction between the forms is more blurred.

Tanner92I have prayed for you all my life.I

I have repaired cars for 20 years.It wasn´t a difficult decision.

I had been working in the Masai Mara in Kenya trying to photograph a leopard family, a mother with two cups. I had followed them with my camera for many months.

There were signs that Sir Charles had stood there for some time.

The continuous form is possibleIin all of these. Only the speaker knows which is more appropriate for him/her.

CalifJim · Answer

Tanner92You may wonder why I am not sure sometimes.

Not at all. I'm a native speaker, and I'm not sure either. The reasons for some of those choices of tense can be very mysterious.

___________

It's sometimes a matter of style.

The continuous can be used to set up the background of a story.
I had been working in the Masai Mara in Kenya trying to photograph a leopard family, a mother with two cubs.

The non-continuous then gives the impression that this is something that happened in the foreground. Here, the action of following takes place within the work situation already described. Besides, too many successive -ings can make the narrative sound like it's just droning on and on.
I had followed them with my camera for many months.
____________

I'm inclined to agree with the first group more. The continuous tends to focus on the agency of the subject. Someone is actively doing something, and that's the image that comes to mind. With that comes the idea of action in time. In comparison, the non-continuous seems merely to relate facts.

This contrast (active vs factual) can even change the mood from friendly and casual to objective and formal in specific instances. Quite a few verbs can be subtly changed this way. For example I have been praying for you elicits a greater sense of fervency at prayer than I've prayed for you, which seems lackluster and matter-of-fact in comparison. In some cases, the author does not wish to evoke activity. Your example with 'stand' is a good example. Sir Charles had stood there seems to describe a more dignified pose than Sir Charles had been standing there, which might even suggest to some that the noble knight had been fidgeting about, nervously waiting for something. Besides, the main idea of that sentence is that "there were signs", giving the impression that this factual evidence is more important than the exact details of how Sir Charles behaved while he stood there.
____________

It's impossible to give you a thorough analysis that can cover every example you run across, but maybe some of the ideas I've presented here will help.

CJ

Tanner92 · Answer

fivejedjonTanner92

I have prayed for you all my life.

I have repaired cars for 20 years.

I had been working in the Masai Mara in Kenya trying to photograph a leopard family, a mother with two cubs.

I had followed them with my camera for many months. There were signs that Sir Charles had stood there for some time.

The continuous form is possible in all of these.

= It wasn´t a difficult decision. I have played for so long (for this team- Federer decided to end his Davis Cup career)....... This one would not be possible to be written in the continuous form? If so, why is that please?

2)

If I get your ideas correctly. It is not true that there are some verbs which can not be used with this structure/use of present perfect simple? It can be used with every word/verb.I can use both present perfect simple and continuous depending what I want to emphasise.

+ At worst it can happen that sometimes I may use present perfect simple (I have waited for you for 20 years etc.) where some people would prefer present perfect continuous - however it doesn´t mean that it is a big mistake. It is just question of preference that other person would prefer to use the other option instead of mine? I am asking because if I get it right it seems to me that I can switch between these tenses (in this use) interchangeably - with a slight "stylistic" difference.

3)

Is present perfect simple more likely to be used for permanent - long lasting situations unlike the present perfect continuous?

4)

At the end of one tournament I heard (Final ceremony speech): "You have played here till the very end" - Would it be possible to say "You have been playing here till the very end" ?

5)
I am meeting my teacher next week - do you think that you will be willing to come back to this question after my lesson with the teacher? I´ll try to finish this topic with her but I am afraid there will arise a few more things closely connected with the thoughts here.

Thank you

Fivejedjon · Answer

Tanner92It wasn´t a difficult decision. I have played for so long (for this team- Federer decided to end his Davis Cup career)....... This one would not be possible to be written in the continuous form?

Yes, it would.

Tanner92If I get your ideas correctly. It is not true that there are some verbs which can not be used with this structure/use of present perfect simple? It can be used with every word/verb.I can use both present perfect simple and continuous depending what I want to emphasise.

I did not say that. I can't think of a situation in which the verb KNOW, for example can naturally be used in the present perfect continuous. However, I am sure that one of my colleagues here will be able to come up with a plausible context.

Tanner92Is present perfect simple more likely to be used for permanent - long lasting situations unlike the present perfect continuous?

Not necessarily. Humans have been killing each other for thousand of years.

Tanner92At the end of one tournament I heard (Final ceremony speech): "You have played here till the very end" - Would it be possible to say "You have been playing here till the very end" ?

Actually, the past-time marker 'till the very end' means that a past-tense form is far more likely thany any perfect-aspect form.

Tanner92o you think that you will be willing to come back to this question after my lesson with the teacher?

Yes, though I can't promise. There are many experienced teachers here who can deal with your questions.

Tanner92 · Answer

fivejedjonI can't think of a situation in which the verb KNOW, for example can naturally be used in the present perfect continuous.

Off course

I am sorry that I forgot to mention state verbs which aren´t used in progressive form.

Most importantly - I have finally found the article where the idea of some verbs which aren´t possible to be used with present perfect simple comes from.

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/edu/2002/01/22/stories/2002012200080200.htm

It says:

This however is not possible in the case of all verbs. For example, you cannot say, "I have read the book for three weeks", or "I have eaten since yesterday".

Why present perfect simple can not be used here? Does it have something to do with the length of the "thing/event etc."? Should I have to use present perfect simple instead of continuous if I were talking about something having been happening just for 3 hours for example? The shorter period of time the more natural present perfect simple ?

fivejedjonActually, the past-time marker 'till the very end' means that a past-tense form is far more likely thany any perfect-aspect form.

You have played here till the very end./ You have been playing here till the very end.

This was said shortly after the end of the match. I would say that all the tournaments including the final which has just finished were still vivid in speaker´s mind and therefore she decided to use perfect tense. Or does it really sound that weird to your ears? Let´s say that it is possible to use present perfect tense here and we just have to decide whether we should use simple or continuous form? Is it the same again that I could choose between both p.p. simple/ p.p. continuous depending what I want to emphasise ?

And one thing which is a bit confusing:

- My roommate walks into my room, sees me with a book in my hand, and asks me why I look so tired. I respond, "I've been studying all day." I cannot say "I (have) studied all day" because I am still studying. This goes against everything I have read and we have discussed here

I thought I could say both versions even if I were in the process of doing it. E.G. -The sentence " I have repaired cars for 20 years" - I still work as a mechanic.

- At the end of a long day, I meet a friend at a cafe' for coffee. Upon seeing me, he asks me why I look so tired. I respond, "I've been studying all day," even though I'm no longer studying and have no intentions of studying anymore today. I could also have responded, "I've studied all day," "I studied all day," or "I was studying all day."

It all comes from this thread: http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/have-worked-been-working.1131089/

fivejedjonYes, though I can't promise.

Thank you. I really appreciate all your support here. I don´t know what I would do if you weren´t here. This is such an amazing forum. Thank you for that

Fivejedjon · Answer

Tanner92 I forgot to mention state verbs which aren´t used in progressive form.

There are extremely few exclusively stative verbs. It is safer to say that verbs used with a stative meaning are not used in the progressive form. The following, for example, are natural and correct:

John is being very kind to his sister.
I have been having problems at work recently.

Tanner92For example, you cannot say, "I have read the book for three weeks", or "I have eaten since yesterday".Why present perfect simple can not be used here?

With actions that are of relativelyshort duration, for example, reading one book/article/etc, the non-progressive form tends to imply completion, and the progressive form non-completion:

I've read 'Emma' since I saw you last.
I've been reading 'War and Peace' for half an hour every night.

Tanner92You have played here till the very end./ You have been playing here till the very end.This was said shortly after the end of the match. I would say that all the tournaments including the final which has just finished were still vivid in speaker´s mind and therefore she decided to use perfect tense. Or does it really sound that weird to your ears? Let´s say that it is possible to use present perfect tense here and we just have to decide whether we should use simple or continuous form? Is it the same again that I could choose between both p.p. simple/ p.p. continuous depending what I want to emphasise ?

It's the 'for three hours' that is important here. if that period of time is over, i.e., in the past, then we naturally use a past tense. If we are speaking as the three hours comes to an end, then the non-progressive form tends to suggest that the playing has come to an end.The progressive form places more emphasis on the duration There is less suggestion that the playing is coming to an end. It's not possible to give a clearer answer than that because, as I said before, there is considerable overlap between the two forms

Tanner92My roommate walks into my room, sees me with a book in my hand, and asks me why I look so tired. I respond, "I've been studying all day." I cannot say "I (have) studied all day" because I am still studying. This goes against everything I have read and we have discussed here I thought I could say both versions even if I were in the process of doing it. E.G. -The sentence " I have repaired cars for 20 years" - I still work as a mechanic.

Well, it's not impossible to say "I have studied all day"!

The problem here is that you have so many variables, such as:

1. The retrospective idea of the perfect aspect, the limited duration idea of the progressive aspect, and the ideas behind using neither, either or both.

2, The difference in the duration-impression of 'all day' and 'for twenty years'.

3. The difference in duration-impression of a limited period of study and a working-life experience of repairing cars.

Tanner92- At the end of a long day, I meet a friend at a cafe' for coffee. Upon seeing me, he asks me why I look so tired. I respond, "I've been studying all day," even though I'm no longer studying and have no intentions of studying anymore today. I could also have responded, "I've studied all day," "I studied all day," or "I was studying all day."

Yes. I said earlier in this thread "Much depends on how the speaker views the situation at the moment of speaking". I also said "Only the speaker knows which is more appropriate for him/her."

If you have questions on anything I have written, please ask them one at a time, or posts will become confusingly long

.

CalifJim · Answer

Tanner92This however is not possible in the case of all verbs. For example, you cannot say, "I have read the book for three weeks", or "I have eaten since yesterday". Why present perfect simple can not be used here? Does it have something to do with the length of the "thing/event etc."? Should I have to use present perfect simple instead of continuous if I were talking about something having been happening just for 3 hours for example? The shorter period of time the more natural present perfect simple ?

Just a brief note about this part. "I have read the book" by itself is "telic", that is, it indicates (at least in the past or present perfect tenses) that a goal has been reached. That is, I have finished reading the book. Phrases that indicate a span of time (and for-phrases of duration are the most typical) only make sense with "atelic" predicates, thus: I have been reading it for three weeks. (The continuous tenses virtually always force an atelic reading.)

Absolute amounts of time have nothing whatsoever to do with how these are interpreted. The sentence below is somewhat anomalous no matter which length of time you specify.

I have read the book for [two minutes / three days / five weeks / two years].

A similar argument applies for the second example, where "I have eaten" is telic, and 'since yesterday' specifies the time span (it's like 'for a day'). In this case as well, a contradiction arises once you consider that you can't have one instance of finishing an action continue to occur over a period of time.

CJ

Tanner92 · Answer

fivejedjonIt's the 'for three hours' that is important here. if that period of time is over,

Three hours? Isn´t this reply to the "You have played here till the very end/ You have been playing here till the very end." sentences? (I would say so according to the rest of the paragraph) There isn´t any time period mentioned.

Califf:

"Phrases that indicate a span of time (and for-phrases of duration are the most typical) only make sense with "atelic" predicates, thus: I have been reading it for three weeks. (The continuous tenses virtually always force an atelic reading.) "

This is what I was afraid of. So there are a few words which I should not use with present perfect simple (with this use) Is it possible to name some of them or at least to find a list of them somwehere on the Internet? If so, what is the key phrase? Atelic/telic?

Thank you

CalifJim · Answer

Tanner92This is what I was afraid of.

That's a strange phobia you have there.

Tanner92So there are a few words which I should not use with present perfect simple (with this use). Is it possible to name some of them or at least to find a list of them somwehere on the Internet? If so, what is the key phrase? Atelic/telic?

It's not that easy. You see, it's not an individual verb that is telic or atelic, though the meaning of the verb can help to tip the interpretation one way or another. It's the whole predicate that's telic or atelic. Just an adverb or two, or a preposition, or changing the object of the verb from singular to plural can change the telicity.

I walked through the park yesterday. Telic
I walked around the park all day. Atelic

Nevertheless, some of the phrases which don't go with certain predicates are obvious. For example "in two hours" won't work in the sentence below.

*The plane has landed in two hours.

Wikipedia has a good article on "telicity" that might give you some ideas for moving forward on your quest.

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

(The following is based on current US usage.)

"I've been working here for 10 yrs." and "I've worked here for 10 yrs." You might hear either of these in response to a question like: "How long have you worked here?" Both are correct. The difference is that in the first one, the extra words serve to "draw out" the statement, making it sound milder and friendlier. A woman might tend to use this form more than a man. The second one sounds cold and curt in comparison. A man might tend to use this form more than a woman.

"I've prayed for you all my life." This is grammatical but not logical. No one prays for someone all their life.

"I've repaired cars for 20 yrs." and "I've been repairing cars for 20 yrs." are both correct as replies to a statement like: "How long have you been repairing cars?" The additional words in the second one serve to "draw out" the statement and make it more casual and friendly-sounding. The first one sounds curt and cold in comparison.

"it wasn't a difficult decision. I've played for so long..." More context is needed for an evaluation of this construction.

"I had...Masai Mara...leopard...two cubs. I had followed/had been following...many months." These are both correct in this situation. "Had been following," due to the extra words, sounds more dedicated and sincere - this naturalist loves his work. "Had followed" sounds curt and harsh by comparison - this is how a big game hunter might speak about trailing his quarry.

"There were signs that...had stood/had been standing there for some time." Again, the extra words in the second on serve to draw out the statement and make it sound more tentative - this is how a search party of his friends might describe the situation. The first one sounds cold and technical in comparison - this is how a policeman assigned to the case might talk about the situation.

Strange use of present perfect - grey zone?

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