Spelling sounds in English

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I stopped reading Katherine Kerr when the same mistake was perpetuated in her 3rd or 4th book: she gave 'thin' as an example of voiced 'th'.

This is from a book by Molly Gloss of Portland, Oregon regarding the Esperanto used in her SF novel. Because of the problems in reproducing diacritics in email, I am using the following cheats: # means the following letter has a circumflex:
eg #i = î (i accent circonflexe)
% is that diacritic I have never known the name for - a sort of semi-circle or bottom part of an o - I like to call it a smiley - so %u means a smiley over the u.
Begin quote:
There are no silent letters; every word word is pronounced as it is spelled.

Vowels are sounded ah, eh, ee, oh, oo - as in "Are there three or two?"

the semi-vowel %u (that's u with a smiley) is like the English w, and combines with a preceding vowel to form, a diphthong:

a%u = ow (landau)
e%u = ew (euphemism)
Consonants are sounded as in English except for these:

c = ts (prince)
#c = ch (cello)
g always "hard" (goat)
#g always "soft" (gypsy)
j = y (hallelujah)
#j = zh (Taj Mahal)
r always trilled
s always sibilant (sensible)
#s = sh (sugar)
End quote
I'll leave it up to Ray Wise to tell us how true this is from the Esperanto side, but just consider English:
- Taj Mahal - I know lots of people who give this a 'dg' sound, even changing the vowel so it more or less rhymes with 'badge'. I'd have thought 'pleasure, treasure, leisure' would have been better examples, although there are a minority who use a 'zj' sound.

- prince. There may well be people for whom 'prince' and 'prints' are homophones, but I still think 'prints' would have been a better example. I can't think of an imported German word where most English speakers would say the z as ts (Zeitgeist).
- euphemism. This one really blew me. The way she describes e#u sounds like the way the Queen might say 'coat, robe, own' - don't most people pronounce euphemism with a 'you' sound? I thought maybe she meant the way 'euphemism' is pronounced in Esperanto, but then Esperanto is unlikely to have ph. Weird.
- oh = or. I thought an American writer would have chosen 'aw'. How close this is to the sound a real Esperantist would use, is another question.

Rob Bannister

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]This is from a book by Molly Gloss of Portland, Oregon regarding the Esperanto used in her SF novel. Because ... as it is spelled. Vowels are sounded ah, eh, ee, oh, oo - as in "Are there three or two?"[/nq]
This comes pretty close. Others simply say to pronounce the vowels as in Italian, and let it go at that.
[nq:1]the semi-vowel %u (that's u with a smiley) is like the English w, and combines with a preceding vowel to form, a diphthong: a%u = ow (landau) e%u = ew (euphemism)[/nq]
Not unless you pronounce English "euphemism" very weirdly.
[nq:1]Consonants are sounded as in English except for these: c = ts (prince) #c = ch (cello) g always "hard" ... it up to Ray Wise to tell us how true this is from the Esperanto side, but just consider English:[/nq]
Pretty close, but this list doesn't have the circulflexed H, which is like Spanish J or X, or German CH (either ich-laut or ach-laut they're both understandable).
[nq:1]- Taj Mahal - I know lots of people who give this a 'dg' sound, even changing the vowel so ... have thought 'pleasure, treasure, leisure' would have been better examples, although there are a minority who use a 'zj' sound.[/nq]
Right but I'd call it a "zh" sound.
[nq:1]- prince. There may well be people for whom 'prince' and 'prints' are homophones, but I still think 'prints' would have been a better example. I can't think of an imported German word where most English speakers would say the z as ts (Zeitgeist).[/nq]
I go with "pizza" or "Mozart".
[nq:1]- euphemism. This one really blew me. The way she describes e#u sounds like the way the Queen might say ... thought maybe she meant the way 'euphemism' is pronounced in Esperanto, but then Esperanto is unlikely to have ph. Weird.[/nq]
Her examples or "coat, robe, own" as pronounced by the Queen are close, but might not be understood by everyone. This is a tricky sound.
[nq:1]- oh = or. I thought an American writer would have chosen 'aw'. How close this is to the sound a real Esperantist would use, is another question.[/nq]
To me, an American, "aw" is closer to the sound of an Esperanto A. The vowel in an American's "or" is better, but some describe it as the sound of the O in "fold".
On my page listed below, I have examples for Americans of all the Esperanto sounds.

Stefano
http://www.steve-and-pattie.com/esperantujo/alphabet.html

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I stopped reading Katherine Kerr when the same mistake was perpetuated in her 3rd or 4th book: she gave 'thin' ... of an o - I like to call it a smiley - so %u means a smiley over the u.[/nq]
That diacritic is called a "breve" in English.
[nq:1]Begin quote: There are no silent letters; every word word is pronounced as it isspelled. Vowels are sounded ah, eh, ... be people for whom 'prince' and 'prints' are homophones, but I still think 'prints' would have been a better example.[/nq]
I agree. MWCD11 has for the pronunciation of "prince" "'prin(t)s". Something like "hats" would be better.
[nq:1]I can't think of an imported German word where most English speakers would say the z as ts (Zeitgeist).[/nq]
The word "zeitgeist" has the same problem as "tsar": They have more than one pronunciation. Both can be pronounced with a /z/ and "tsar" can also be pronounced with /s/ instead of /ts/.
[nq:1]- euphemism. This one really blew me. The way she describes e#u sounds like the way the Queen might say 'coat, robe, own' - don't most people[/nq]
How many Americans are aware that the "long 'o'"of Received Pronunciation is different from the American "long 'o'"?
[nq:1]pronounce euphemism with a 'you' sound? I thought maybe she meant the way 'euphemism' is pronounced in Esperanto, but then Esperanto is unlikely to have ph. Weird.[/nq]
You are correct, of course. "Eu" in Esperanto slides from an "e"-sound into /U/, and the "e"-sound depends upon whether "e" is pronounced /E/, as in "bed" or /e/, the vowel in the French word "été" and the beginning vowel of the "ay" diphthong in English, /eI/. According to an Esperantist friend of mine, both "e"-sounds agree with the Fundamento de Esperanto because what Zamenhof did to indicate the pronunciation of "e" was to point to examples in natural languages, some of which used /E/ and some of which used /e/.
[nq:1]- oh = or. I thought an American writer would have chosen 'aw'. How close this is to the sound a real Esperantist would use, is another question. Rob Bannister[/nq]
Now things really become difficult. It's easy enough for me to discuss the matter using examples from French: The "o" of Esperanto can be either that of the French "sot" and "Paul" or that of the French "sotte" and "Paule." (Whether either of these agrees with the Fundamento, I don't know). The word "or" would illustrate the sound in "sotte" or "Paule," but "aw" would not do for either of them.
There's also the question of the Esperanto "a": It can be the "ah" of "are," /A/, or the sound /a/, which does not exist in American English except as the beginning of the diphthongs "eye, /aI/, and "ow," /aU/. (Again, I don't know whether this agrees with the Fundamento.)

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minesoto Usono
mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]How many Americans are aware that the "long 'o'"of Received Pronunciation is different from the American "long 'o'"?[/nq]
Some American accents have a "long 'o'" that is similar to the "long 'o'" of RP. How 'bout Philadelphia/South Jersey?
[nq:1]There's also the question of the Esperanto "a": It can be the "ah" of "are," /A/, or the sound /a/, ... the beginning of the diphthongs "eye, /aI/, and "ow," /aU/. (Again, I don't know whether this agrees with the Fundamento.)[/nq]
What do you mean "/a/ ... does not exist in American English"? How would you notate the "father" vowel of Eastern New England accents? And if (a) is meant, we have the whole Upper Midwest (except Minneapolis) "cot" vowel.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]accent circonflexe)[/nq]
[nq:2]% is that diacritic I have never known the name ... smiley - so %u means a smiley over the u.[/nq]
[nq:1]That diacritic is called a "breve" in English.[/nq]
Thanks for that. I always wondered.
[nq:2]- prince. There may well be people for whom 'prince' and 'prints' are homophones, but I still think 'prints' would have been a better example.[/nq]
[nq:1]I agree. MWCD11 has for the pronunciation of "prince" "'prin(t)s". Something like "hats" would be better.[/nq]
Agreed.
[nq:2]I can't think of an imported German word where most English speakers would say the z as ts (Zeitgeist).[/nq]
[nq:1]The word "zeitgeist" has the same problem as "tsar": They have more than one pronunciation. Both can be pronounced with a /z/ and "tsar" can also be pronounced with /s/ instead of /ts/.[/nq]
Stefano suggested pizza, which is better.
[nq:2]- euphemism. This one really blew me. The way she ... Queen might say 'coat, robe, own' - don't most people[/nq]
[nq:1]You are correct, of course. "Eu" in Esperanto slides from an "e"-sound into /U/, and the "e"-sound depends upon whether ... "e" was to point to examples in natural languages, some of which used /E/ and some of which used /e/.[/nq]
The best part I didn't discover till I finished reading the book yesterday: She doesn't use the eu spelling at all!

The sounds of a, o, u, indeed of all the 'basic' vowels, are very hard to express with English spelling, since we all have different values for them. I know I would, as you did, take recourse to another language whenever possible to explain the sounds.

Rob Bannister

Usenet · Answer

I am familiar with neither dialectal usage you mention. I have to say, that last point, that (a) exists as a pure vowel in some accent of the Upper Midwest, seems very unlikely to me.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I am familiar with neither dialectal usage you mention. I have to say, that last point, that (a) exists as a pure vowel in some accent of the Upper Midwest, seems very unlikely to me.[/nq]
I assure you that it does. I'm looking right now for instance at the vowel chart of a 28-year-old speaker from Kenosha, Wisconsin, and her average short-o as in "hot" and "cot" is noticeably front of center. If that's not (a), what it it?
As Richard said, (a) is found in eastern New England for the "father" class of vowel. It also occurs for the "sky-high flight" class of vowel for many Southern speakers.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom

Usenet · Answer

...
} I am familiar with neither dialectal usage you mention. I have to say, that } last point, that (a) exists as a pure vowel in some accent of the Upper } Midwest, seems very unlikely to me.
Settle for Upstate New York?

R. J. Valentine

Usenet · Answer

...
} I am familiar with neither dialectal usage you mention. I have to say, that } last point, that (a) exists as a pure vowel in some accent of the Upper } Midwest, seems very unlikely to me.
Settle for Upstate New York?

R. J. Valentine

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]... } I am familiar with neither dialectal usage you mention. I have to say, that } last point, that (a) exists as a pure vowel in some accent of the Upper } Midwest, seems very unlikely to me. Settle for Upstate New York?[/nq]
Only if coneys are available.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]... } I am familiar with neither dialectal usage you mention. I have to say, that } last point, that (a) exists as a pure vowel in some accent of the Upper } Midwest, seems very unlikely to me. Settle for Upstate New York?[/nq]
Only if coneys are available.

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