Sophia, orthia...wisdom, let us attend...

Question

I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student come up with a new English translation for a small part of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostomos, the "regular" liturgy of the Greek Orthodox Christian Church. This liturgy is about 1700 years old, written in Early Koine Church Greek, which is roughly halfway between the Attic Greek of the golden age of Pericles and the patois that is spoken in the capital nowadays. I would not wish this odious task upon my worst enemy, but, I've done worse things for money, really.

There is a line in the mass that reads: "Sophia, orthia." The standard translation in official translations is given in the subject line.

Moroever, the line is actually SUNG by the priest when he delivers it, in classic Byzantine worship. "SOOO-ooo-ffi-iii-ii-i-i-i-AAHHH, ORRR-thii-iii-iii-i-i-AHHH!" (Yes, it is even more boring than it sounds. There isn't much "action worship" among the Orthodox.)

Basically, though, a literal translation of this divinely inspired line would be "Wisdom, stand." Now, in my view, that lacks a certain panache, not to mention the rhyming pattern of the orginal.

We're not talking about gangsta rap, of course (Yo homey, up and listen up!), but my divinity student and I both feel that we need to jazz up the literal translation a bit. He believes this because he feels an on-again, off-again need to respect the dignity of Mother Church, while I am interested in his getting a halfway-decent grade and feeding me more uniformly-overweight, wannabe priests who were too lazy to learn English when they had the chance and now need special help because they lied on their admission applications to seminary.
In the final analysis, what I'm after is this: in the Roman Catholic Church Mass, before he reads out the day's passage from the Bible, does the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?

Usenet · Accepted Answer

On 29 Jul 2005 19:57:59 -0700, "credoquaabsurdum"
[nq:1]I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student come up with a new English translation ... out the day's passage from the Bible, does the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?[/nq]
Dunno about mass, but there's the naff 'be upstanding'.

DC

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I am in the unenviable position of having to help a divinity student come up with a new English translation ... out the day's passage from the Bible, does the priest tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?[/nq]
More to the point, ask your divinity student
if it's customary in his ceremony for the
priest to order the congregation to stand
up to hear the reading.
If they've literally been standing up for

1700 years you may not wanna change that.

However, I suspect from my own knowledge
of the English language and it's Greek
loanwords that 'orthia' in a religious
ceremony has more to do with orthodox
rather than orthopedic -:)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I am in the unenviable position of having to help ... tell everyone to stand up? What exactly does he say?[/nq]
[nq:1]More to the point, ask your divinity student if it's customary in his ceremony for the priest to order the ... and it's Greek loanwords that 'orthia' in a religious ceremony has more to do with orthodox rather than orthopedic -:)[/nq]
Oops. I've never attended a Roman Catholic ceremony, but the Eastern Orthodox ALWAYS stand when they hear the reading for the Bible. It's an extraordinarily stylized event. I remember when I went to Baptist school when I was a young 'un, there was no up-down routine. Like, uh, duh, I should have thought about that when I posted.

They also kneel and pray to the Lord at some point in the ceremony. In the States, I never attended an Orthodox church without drop-down prie-dieux in the satin-upholstered pews. In Greece, I have yet to see a church with so much as a carpet cushioning the universal marble floor, and the chairs never, but never, have cushions. No shortage of frescoes, gold, and opulent carving, but absolutely no creature comforts, even in the richest churches.
Check that on the marble floor: I had the opportunity to attend a tranditional baptism in a Greek church that is about 1500 years old and there, the floor was actually chiseled out of the hill the church was built on. A millenium and a half of worship hadn't worn it smooth yet. I think it's a mortification of the flesh thing.
"Orthos" in orthodox and orthopedic is really the same word. It means both "upright" and "standing," as DJ Cat, who knows Greek, played on.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]More to the point, ask your divinity student if it's ... has more to do with orthodox rather than orthopedic -:)[/nq]
[nq:1]Oops. I've never attended a Roman Catholic ceremony, but the Eastern Orthodox ALWAYS stand when they hear the reading for the Bible.[/nq]
In the Roman Catholic Mass the congregation stands during readings from the Gospels but sits during readings from other sections of the Bible (Epistles, Acts, Old Testament etc.). It's a long time since I attended a Catholic Mass so I can't tell you if the congregation is instructed to stand for the Gospel or the other parts of the ceremony where the congregation has to stand.
I've only been to an Orthodox ceremony once (the funeral of an acquaintance). I basically followed what the rest of the congregation did.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]More to the point, ask your divinity student if it's ... has more to do with orthodox rather than orthopedic -:)[/nq]
[nq:1]Oops. I've never attended a Roman Catholic ceremony, but the Eastern Orthodox ALWAYS stand when they hear the reading for ... a young 'un, there was no up-down routine. Like, uh, duh, I should have thought about that when I posted.[/nq]
I originally meant to warn you against your rant about Koine on the basis of personal experience.
My wife's cousin was a Baptist missionary in Africa, early 60's.

His reward for outstanding work in the field was a seminary appointment to teach what he called 'New Testament Greek.'

When I said, 'Do you mean Koinee?' He said stiffly, 'I suppose we could call it demotic Greek.'
[nq:1]They also kneel and pray to the Lord at some point in the ceremony. In the States, I never attended ... have cushions. No shortage of frescoes, gold, and opulent carving, but absolutely no creature comforts, even in the richest churches.[/nq]
I used to attend RC mass but it's been years. I think we only stood up at beginning and end.
In between there was sitting and kneeling and getting up to go take communion.
Seems to me the 2 parties, after the great schism, must have decided to make their rituals as opposite as they could.
That's why I asked you if orthodox actually stood to hear the reading.

Your divinity student would get short shrift if he attempted to change orthodox practices into Catholic ones -:)
The last Pope's last visit to Russia in an attempt to heal the schism did not sit well with Orthodox patriarchs.
[nq:1]Check that on the marble floor: I had the opportunity to attend a tranditional baptism in a Greek church that ... orthopedic is really the same word. It means both "upright" and "standing," as DJ Cat, who knows Greek, played on.[/nq]
Indeed, the orthodox are always claiming they're right.

Usenet · Answer

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments on this thread. I apologize for settiung out something like this in this group, but I was at my wits' end.
Regarding Einde's comment, indeed, the Orthodox stand during the GOSPEL reading, not other New Testament readings. It has been years since I have actually paid real attention to the liturgy in general, and I didn't make that clear.
My divinity student, against my better judgement, has decided to change "Wisdom, let us attend" to "Wisdom, stand and attend." His work is part of a inquiry on the part of the Greek Orthodox church to produce a new officially-sanctioned translation, the last one having been approved circa 1900.
Regarding other comments:
When Pope John Paul II came to Athens, he was actually forced to stand and listen to the archbishop of Athens a jumped-up popinjay if ever there was one read off a list of grievances against the Orthodox dating from the Great Schism.
I've never attended to a Catholic Mass, and your information was extrememly helpful.
People who know me know I make no claims whatsoever to the supremacy of any Christian sect whatsoever. There once was a time when I had serious thoughts about entering the priesthood, but when I realized my first love was teaching English, that quickly went by the wayside. Some interesting trivia: most of the official Orthodox hierarchy worldwide have voted in the last hundred years to officially recognize the Anglican model as legitimate, and have lobbied to incorporate parts of the Church of England's innovations into general Orthodox practice.
[nq:1]From what I understand, they're only about another hundred years (orso) away from officially merging.[/nq]
Once again, thank you.

Sophia, orthia...wisdom, let us attend...

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