Someone and me

Question

I've been thinking about how some people have started accepting sentences like "I am taller than him", arguing that than could regarded as a preposition. Why could the same argument not be used about the conjunction and in cases like "Peter and me went home"?`

What do you think?

Miriam · Accepted Answer

Hello, Mask.

Briefly put, "me" is the form the personal pronoun "I" takes in object position. "I" is the coorrect form of the pronoun to use as subject of a verb.
I think this topic was discused recently in the forums.

If Peter didn't go home but you did, you wouldn't say "Me went home" but "I went home".
That's the simplest explanation I can provide.

If, on the other hand, "Peter and I/me" were the object of a verb, then "me" should be used:
"She brought presents for Peter and me."

Also, you said it's argued that "than" can be considered a preposition. But "and" is a conjunction. Anyway, the choice does not depend on the conjunction "and", as you have seen.

I hope it helps.

Miriam

Mask · Answer

You're not getting me. "Than" has usually been regarded as a conjunction, but now more and more people think that it is ok to use "than" as a preposition. Why could we not do the same about "and." I know that "and" has traditionally been a conjunction, but since people use it as a preposition nowadays, why not call it one?

Think about "but". "But" is usually a conjunction, but in sentences like "Everyone but me went home." or "Everyone went home but me." it is a preposition.

MountainHiker · Answer

Hi Mask,

"I am taller than him."

You might find the following page interesting [url="http://www.bartleby.com/61/13/T0141300.html"]"than"[/url], as it discusses your point.

PREPOSITION: Usage Problem In comparison or contrast with: could run faster than him; outclassed everyone other than her.

USAGE NOTE: Since the 18th century grammarians have insisted that than should be regarded as a conjunction in all its uses, so that a sentence such as Bill is taller than Tom should be construed as an elliptical version of the sentence Bill is taller than Tom is. According to this view, the case of a pronoun following than is determined by whether the pronoun serves as the subject or object of the verb that is “understood.” Thus, the standard rule requires Pat is taller than I (not me) on the assumption that this sentence is elliptical for Pat is taller than I am but allows The news surprised Pat more than me, since this sentence is taken as elliptical for The news surprised Pat more than it surprised me. However, than is quite commonly treated as a preposition when followed by an isolated noun phrase, and as such occurs with a pronoun in the objective case: John is taller than me. Though this usage is still widely regarded as incorrect, it is predominant in speech and has reputable literary precedent, appearing in the writing of such respected authors as Shakespeare, Johnson, Swift, Scott, and Faulkner. It is also consistent with the fact that than is clearly treated as a preposition in the than whom construction, as in a poet than whom (not than who) no one has a dearer place in the hearts of his countrymen. Still, the writer who risks a sentence like Mary is taller than him in formal writing must be prepared to defend the usage against objections of critics who are unlikely to be dissuaded from the conviction that the usage is incorrect.

I don't understand your argument for "and" being a preposition.

"And" is a conjunction, used to connect words, phrases, or clauses that have the same grammatical function in a construction.

Hope that helps.

Mask · Answer

My argument for "and" being a preposition is that people use it as one. People do say "Peter and me went home." Why should one insist that this is wrong when there are many other examples in the language of double word class membership when it comes to prepositions/conjunctions.

MountainHiker · Answer

People do say "Peter and me went home."

With all due respect, that sentence would be flagged as being incorrect. Children will often say that sentence as they continue to wrestle with the language. But most educated adults don't use that form.

As you probably know, it should be written as "Peter and I went home."

Both Peter and I act as subjects in the sentence. "Me" is used as an object, often as an indirect object.

Peter and Mary gave me a present. See how "me" acts as an indirect object? The direct object is "present."

You should have a quick review of [url="http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/objects.htm"]Predicates, Objects, complements[/url].

Why should one insist that this is wrong when there are many other examples in the language of double word class membership when it comes to prepositions/conjunctions.

I think we addressed the "wrong" with the object and subject argument. English is a language full of exceptions and idiosyncracies. That doesn't necessarily mean you can go and add your own.

If you were to use the form "Peter and me went home" a lot, then you would receive a lot of corrections from people.

Spelling in English is even worse.

Ghoti could be "fish"
gh - enouGH - f sound
o - wOmen - i sound
ti - informaTIon - sh sound

Frustrating isn't it?

Maj · Answer

Yeah, I am finding it very frustrating.

MountainHiker · Answer

Yeah, I am finding it very frustrating.

The good news is that it gets easier with more familiarity.

Hang in there.

Miriam · Answer

Hello again, Mask.
I musunderstood your question, but I see what you mean now.

Just like many other English words, "than" belongs to more than one class. It is a preposition in sentences like "She is taller than me", and it is a conjunction in sentences like "She is taller than I (am)."
In other words, "than" is regarded as a preposition when it is followed by an object, and it is a subordinating conjunction when it introduces a comparative clause (or a structure that can be expanded into a clause).

I also agree that "but" is mostly used as a conjunction, but in certain constructions it acts as a preposition. It can also be an adverb and a noun.

"And", however, is different. unless it is used in initial position, to join two sentences, it is always a conjunction. And that is not capricious really. "And" is a conjunction because you use it, as was said before, to join two words, phrases, clauses, etc. that have the same grammatical status.

You can say "You and me". But that construction will be correct only if it appears in the right place in an utterance. Unlike other grammars ~~such as that of my mother tongue~~ English grammar is based mainly on word order. There are categories (word classes, structures, etc.) which you can use in a certain position in a sentence but which will be incorrect if you move them to a different position... unless you change their form.

Returning to "You and me", it wil be correct if you use that construction in object position for example, but it will be incorrect if you use it as subject. Why? Because "me" is the objective form of the pronoun "I", regardless of whether or not you are using "and".
You say "you and I speak English", and you say "English is spoken by you and me".
There is no doubt that "and" is a conjunction in the first example. Now, if you look at the second example, you will see that "and" has exactly the same function as in the first one. Its function hasn't changed, so it is no necessary to think of a different category for that word. It is joining two words of the same grammatical status in both sentences.
"And" will not become a preposition just because the word that comes after it is an objective pronoun.

I don't know if this is clear enough or if it answers your question. I hope id is, and that is does, though.

Miriam

Anonymous · Answer

Actually, I've never heard "Peter and me went home" - I hear "Me and Peter went home" somewhat more often than "Peter and I went home", both sound correct - but than again "I and Peter went home" sounds as wrong as the first one.

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