Some and any (for the billionth time)

Question

Hi,some and any again... If I consider this post:...it seems I would have to use "any" every time a negation is present. But "not" + "some" still sounds ok to me in some situations, and I don't know why. I still feel I need to use "some" in some cases. Can anyone think of some examples where "not" + "some" is ok?I only know it's ok in a context like this, where the negation only affects one part of a whole set:I didn't check some of the sentences (but I checked the others)Any other cases? As a repetition?Do you want some soda? Do you want some soda? Do you want some soda? Huh? - Quit it, I don't want some soda, I want some beer, damn it!As a way to emphazise you are surprised?Geez, I didn't know you had some nuclear weapons under your bed!I could hardly believe he was making some dwarfs work in a gold mine in his basement!How about here? Look at this example:The four girls didn't know there were some police officers waiting for them, not far from there.In most of those examples, I would tend to use "some", and using "any" would sometimes not sound the same. I think "any" just sounds too general, hypothetical, like it indicates something might be possible, while "some" just sounds more "real", "just-the-facts" to me. But this belief causes me to see a sentence like - He didn't know I had some sisters, so he thought those girls were just part of the people who worked for me... - as a possible sentence, although Jim suggested using "any" in those cases.Can anyone tell me more about this? I know it's a real mess, sorry. Thank you in advance.

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

KooyeenI only know it's ok in a context like this, where the negation only affects one part of a whole set:
I didn't check some of the sentences (but I checked the others)

Right. (As you know, this was mentioned in the post cited.)

KooyeenDo you want some soda? Do you want some soda? Do you want some soda? Huh? - Quit it, I don't want some soda, I want some beer, **** it!

OK. You're almost quoting here. I don't want "some soda". I want some beer.

Also: I don't want "some soda". I want a lot of soda.

These probably go under the topic of 'contrast'.

KooyeenAs a way to emphazise you are surprised?
Geez, I didn't know you had some nuclear weapons under your bed!
I could hardly believe he was making some dwarfs work in a gold mine in his basement!

To me it sounds more natural to leave out "some" completely (and leave out "any" as well). I don't know what to say about this one. Is it significant that the negation is not in the same clause as "some", I wonder.

KooyeenHow about here? Look at this example:

The four girls didn't know there were some police officers waiting for them, not far from there.

The negation isn't even in the same clause as "some". Regardless, this is the "some" that means "certain", not the "some" that means "an indefinite number or quantity of".

Compare: They didn't know there was a police officer waiting for them.
It was a certain police officer (not any other).

KooyeenBut this belief causes me to see a sentence like - He didn't know I had some sisters, so he thought those girls were just part of the people who worked for me... - as a possible sentence, although Jim suggested using "any" in those cases.

Yup. And I still do.

But you've already heard enough from me, so let's hope that others will weigh in on this subject.

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

Thanks!

I mean, I "emoticonically" cry because I still don't understand, LOL. I find it hard to believe there isn't a simple rule of thumb to follow, but maybe there really isn't one. Native speakers just trust their instincts... should I trust mine? I just don't see anything wrong with using "some" in some* negative sentences, because after all the meaning is clear. (*note that this "some" was required and "any" would have had a different meaning).

Any sounds more general (like "any one, no matter which"), and NOT + ANY = NO. It also sounds like it's introducing a "possibility".

Some just sounds like a partitive...

Keeping that in mind, I have been meditating on this for a while, and I came to the conclusion that it all boils down to what you want to convey and what the context conveys. There always appear to be a difference in meaning, and when there is no difference either one or the other is more idiomatic.

Here are all my thoughts. Examples with thoughts, which show how my intuition seem to work now.
WARNING! The following part might contain a load of bullsh... nonsense, so feel free to read it, laugh, insult me, whatever.

1) I don't think there will be any ghosts in that castle.
= I think there will be no ghosts. We won't see any.

2) I don't think there will be some ghosts in that castle.
This might be used for some reason (repetition, etc.), but what is it that we really want to say? We want to say we would like to see some ghosts, but I'm afraid that won't happen. So here NOT + SOME = NO, and therefore why not just use NOT + ANY? So that's why this is not common... because #1 is used instead.

3) Sarah didn't tell me anyone might access the data

= Anyone would be able to access the data , and Sarah didn't warn me about this.
Note that here the verb isn't "to think" anymore. While "to think" might suggest "possibility" (and therefore "any"), here we have "to tell", which suggest "facts". The negation doesn't seem to affect the second part of the sentence.

4) Sarah didn't tell me somebody else might access the data
= Someone else might access the data, and Sarah didn't warn me about this.
Again, the negation doesn't affect the second part. You need "somebody".

5) I didn't know you needed some money for that project
With the verb "to know", both "some" and "any" seem possible, but with slightly different implications, maybe. This one might mean:

= No one told me you needed some money (Maybe everyone but me knew that you needed some money).
You needed some money, that's a fact.

6) I didn't know you needed any money for that project

= I didn't think of the possibility you might need any money.
Here "any" gives the idea of "possibility", it sounds more general, like it's not a fact.
Note that while #5 and #6 basically mean the same, they sound a bit different and have slightly different implications. Since #6 sounds more "general", and therefore more "detached", it's maybe more "polite" and more likely to be used regardless of the implications.

7) I can't imagine a priest throwing granades... Maybe that's why priests don't join the army?
This is the most general one. No some's or any's.

8) I can't imagine a priest throwing any grenades... Priests don't throw granades at all!
I can't even imagine a priest throwing ONE. Again "any" might give the idea of "possibility", and it doesn't seem possible for a priest to throw grenades. Here the negation seems to affect the second clause, so NOT + ANY = NO grenades.

9)I can't imagine a priest throwing some grenades, then celebrating a mass, then throwing some more, then mass again, then some more grenades, mass, grenades, mass, grenades... Nah, either you're a priest or you're a soldier, you can't be both, man!
Here "some" is just a partitive, and the negation doesn't seem to affect it. Some = a few.
So it looks like the verb "to imagine" is somewhat flexible, maybe because you can imagine "possible things" or "facts like they're real".

CalifJim · Answer

KooyeenI find it hard to believe there isn't a simple rule of thumb to follow, but maybe there really isn't one.

There's probably a 'rule' (or a set of rules), but it's not simple. That's why we haven't found it yet. We haven't even begun to scour the internet to research this. I'm going to be generous and allow you to do that.

______

1) I don't think there will be any ghosts in that castle.
= I think there will be no ghosts. We won't see any. No problem here.

2) I don't think there will be some ghosts in that castle. Sounds weird.

This might be used for some reason (repetition, etc.), but what is it that we really want to say? We want to say we would like to see some ghosts, but I'm afraid that won't happen. So here NOT + SOME = NO, and therefore why not just use NOT + ANY? So that's why this is not common... because #1 is used instead. You could be right about that.

Note: negated think comes about by transferring a negation from the subordinate clause. The underlying sentence is therefore I think there won't be ___ ghosts in that castle, and I don't hear some as a good way to fill that blank, though any and 'null' both seem OK.

3) Sarah didn't tell me anyone might access the data I'd have said ... anyone could ...

= Anyone would be able to access the data , and Sarah didn't warn me about this.
Note that here the verb isn't "to think" anymore. While "to think" might suggest "possibility" (and therefore "any"), here we have "to tell", which suggest "facts". The negation doesn't seem to affect the second part of the sentence. Totally different meaning and analysis with think. Yes.

4) Sarah didn't tell me somebody else might access the data
= Someone else might access the data, and Sarah didn't warn me about this. OK.

Again, the negation doesn't affect the second part. You need "somebody".
(Not a perfect parallel because of the else, of course.)

The contrast between 3 and 4 is the contrast between any ~ all and some ~ at least one, that is, if you're familiar with quantifier logic, the contrast between the universal quantifier and the existential quantifier. This is the typical contrast for these words, especially when there's no interference from negations.

5) I didn't know you needed some money for that project Hmm. some seems unnecessary, but not wrong.

With the verb "to know", both "some" and "any" seem possible (and 'null'), but with slightly different implications, maybe. This one might mean:

= No one told me you needed some money (Maybe everyone but me knew that you needed some money). Yes. I suppose it could mean that.

You needed some money, that's a fact.

I'm beginning to think that in some contexts the 'null' quantifier is an idiomatic substitute for what you may think is the more accurate and explicit some. But I could be wrong about this.

6) I didn't know you needed any money for that project Normal. OK.

= I didn't think of the possibility you might need any money.
Here "any" gives the idea of "possibility", it sounds more general, like it's not a fact.
Note that while #5 and #6 basically mean the same, they sound a bit different and have slightly different implications. Since #6 sounds more "general", and therefore more "detached", it's maybe more "polite" and more likely to be used regardless of the implications.

7) I can't imagine a priest throwing granades... Maybe that's why priests don't join the army?
This is the most general one. No some's or any's. OK. That's easy to agree with.

8) I can't imagine a priest throwing any grenades... Priests don't throw granades at all! Hmm.

I can't even imagine a priest throwing ONE. Again "any" might give the idea of "possibility", and it doesn't seem possible for a priest to throw grenades. Here the negation seems to affect the second clause, so NOT + ANY = NO grenades. That seems reasonable, especially if any is stressed. Unstessed, any has a different flavor, making it nearly equal to 7, but with the speaker's dismissive attitude thrown in.

9)I can't imagine a priest throwing some grenades, then celebrating a mass, then throwing some more, then mass again, then some more grenades, mass, grenades, mass, grenades... Nah, either you're a priest or you're a soldier, you can't be both, man!
Here "some" is just a partitive, and the negation doesn't seem to affect it. Some = a few.
So it looks like the verb "to imagine" is somewhat flexible, maybe because you can imagine "possible things" or "facts like they're real". The partitive argument seems sound. The use of some and then some more makes it clear that some = a few.

CJ

These were exhausting if not exhaustive.

Kooyeen · Answer

Alright, thanks! [Y]

I see that I'm not so wrong after all, and the context really influences the choices, but I also need to remember the "null" choice (not using anything) often seems to be a good choice I hadn't considered.
If I ever need help with "some" and "any" again (but I hope not! ), I'll post a specific example.

Some and any (for the billionth time)

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