Should/shouldn't

Question

Hello, teachers.  1, It is a pity that you should have missed the party.  2, It is a pity that you shouldn't have missed the party.  3, It is a pity that you shouldn't have missed the party but you did.  4, You shouldn't have missed the party but you did.  Are they all good English?  Do they mean the same thing?    I need your help, please.  Thank you in advance.

Philip · Accepted Answer

# 1-3 don't express your intention (too much verb!): It is a pity that you missed the party.

#4 Correct.

Norwolf · Answer

Hi, Philip. Thanks for your help.

I am sorry. Actually, I don't completely agree with you.

I think #1, #4, and yours are all correct, though there is something unusual.

And I just wonder if #2 or #3 makes sense.

CalifJim · Answer

... a pity you should have missed ... is not used much these days. It's very old-fashioned to my ear. I'd expect it in a novel by Dickens, perhaps, but not in anything much more recent than that. The same "old-fashioned" feel applies to 1, 2, and 3.

I don't know why you put a negation in 2 and 3. They don't make sense unless you change the verb.

It is a pity you shouldn't have attended the party.

Or are you trying to say the party was so awful that it would have been better not to attend?

Adding but you did is anomalous in 3.
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In 4 you have a different usage of should. Here should has to do with what is advisable. (In 1,2, and 3 the "advisable" meaning doesn't apply.) The meaning of 4 is this:

It [was / would have been] advisable not to miss the party, but you missed it anyway.

CJ

Norwolf · Answer

Now that #4 alone is correct, why can't we put it after It's a pity as a subject clause to say the party would have been enjoyable if you attended, which is advisable?

So, dear CalifJim, you mean should is never used in this way, but instead it is always to do with subjectives after It's a pity. You native speakers agree on it all the way.

Are there more views?

Ivanhr · Answer

You can say You shouldn't have missed the party to suggest that the party was to good to be missed.

Compare

You missed the meeting. (What happened that stopped you from attending?)

You shouldn't have missed the meeting. (You should have attended but you didn't)

Kooyeen · Answer

It's a pity.
What? The fact that you missed the party.
Structure: It's a pity (that) you missed the party.

The following sentences have completely different structures and verbs:

You shouldn't have missed the party.
You should have come along.

In the above examples, "should/shouldn't" is used to say "what would have been right or sensible, but was not done" (from Longman).

CalifJim · Answer

norwolf... why can't we put it after It's a pity as a subject (subjunctive?) clause to say the party would have been enjoyable if you attended, which is advisable?

No. The meaning doesn't come across the way you envision it. Once you have the emotional reaction phrase "It's a pity", the word should in the following clause merely gives a subjunctive-like feel to the sentence without introducing the meaning of advisability. The reason is that it doesn't really make sense to say that it's a pity that something is advisable. Why would we feel it a pity that we believe it is advisable to do something?

1. You should have attended the concert. = I believe you acted foolishly by not attending the concert. (I think you would have enjoyed it.)

2. It's a pity you should have attended the concert. ("old-fashioned" phrasing) = It's a pity you attended the concert. ("modern" phrasing) It was not enjoyable at all. You were probably disappointed.

This second example does not mean: It's a pity that I believe you acted foolishly by not attending the concert. The addition of the initial "It's a pity" completely changes the meaning of should.
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Learn to distinguish the three main uses of should:

a. advisability. You should buy your shoes at Jackson's Shoes. They are cheaper there. [I advise you to buy your shoes there.]

b. expectation. It should take at least an hour to do this task. I'll be surprised if you have it done any sooner than that. [I expect it will take at least an hour.]

c. "evaluative" should. (subjunctive-like; may sound "old-fashioned" in some contexts; often seen in the context of an emotional reaction to a situation) Catherine was very upset that Michael should treat her in such a shabby way. [She was upset that he treated her like that.]

CJ

Norwolf · Answer

CalifJim Why would we feel it a pity that we believe it is advisable to do something?

Thank you so much, CalifJim. You're amazing. It's not logical. Got it.

Norwolf · Answer

It is a pity because you shouldn't have missed the party.

I should think the above works.

Do you agree?

CalifJim · Answer

I agree that it qualifies as correct, but just barely. So "yes, but ...".

It's just not the way an English speaker would say it. This is more likely:

It's a pity you missed the party. You really should have come!

And, truth be told, I don't know many people who use the phrase "It's a pity". "It's too bad" is a more casual substitute for ordinary conversation.

It's too bad you missed the party. You really should have come!

CJ

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