Should have

Question

Just a little doubt on using should: X should have been true had Y been true. X should have been true if Y had been true.

Are both forms ok for past conditional? Are there other ways to write it, except reversing the order?

Thanks,

Avangi · Accepted Answer

Just as an aside, I don't know the formulae, but I would surely use "would" instead of "should."

(Unless you're really unsure if X would have been true.)

CalifJim · Answer

AnonymousJust a little doubt on using should: X should have been true had Y been true. X should have been true if Y had been true.

Are both forms ok for past conditional? Are there other ways to write it, except reversing the order?

"had Y been true" = "if Y had been true". Yes. Both are OK. I do not know of any other ways to write it. "had Y been true" is somewhat literary. "if Y had been true" is more widely used in most speech and writing.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

Hi Jim,
If you have time, should you mind describing a real world scenario which reflects the language in the OP?
I can't recall ever having heard it.
Thanks for your consideration, - A.

CalifJim · Answer

AvangiI can't recall ever having heard it.

Hmm. I'll have to think about that. Obviously, I concentrated on the question of paraphrases of the condition clause, which I took to be the heart of the OP's concern, the remaining portions of the example sentences being identical.

Let's see.

There should have been enough sugar for the cake if you had remembered to buy it the day before. (I'm not totally convinced, but maybe.)
If you had added the numbers correctly, you should have got a total of $253.45. (Any better?)
If you had studied Japanese, you should have become a Japanese teacher. (Still not so good?)

I conclude that it is awkward to combine a main clause with "should have" with an if-clause with "had ...".
____________

The old-fashioned use of 'should' for 'would' comes closer:

I should have had enough sugar for the cake had you remembered to buy it.
If I had known it was on sale at such a low price, I should have bought it.

We should have liked to visit Capri had we had the time.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

Thanks, Jim. From the examples you gave, I believe we understand the words in the same way, if I may presume.

Would you go so far as to agree with my original objection?
Perhaps it's the geometry baggage of "true," and "X" and "Y" that led me to read this like a proof.
If Y is true then X is true.
But apparently when this went down, Y was not.
However, if Y had been true, then X would have been true as well.

I transform that as "X would have been true if Y had been true."
That is, it's a slam-dunk.

It's just a question of "wiggle room."
Somebody says, "Well, then, how come it's not true?"
I reply, "Well, I don't know. It should be."

This has to be the sense of "should" in the OP, in my opinion.
It just seems very incongruous to use "should" here instead of "would."

I felt it had to be wrong, but I know these conditionals are codified in their use of words like "should" and "would." One day I'm going to have to bite the bullet and digest this stuff, pardon the mixed metaphor.

Best regards, - A.

Anonymous · Answer

AvangiHi Jim,
If you have time, should you mind describing a real world scenario which reflects the language in the OP?
I can't recall ever having heard it.
Thanks for your consideration, - A.

Creationism should have been true had Exodus been true. (or something of the sort, just connecting one event to another).

Avangi · Answer

AnonymousCreationism should have been true had Exodus been true. (or something of the sort, just connecting one event to another).

Thanks, Anon.
What I struggle with here is the implication that Exodus is not true.
I guess I feel that the author may choose "should" or "would" accordingly as he feels his argument is or isn't compelling.
When you choose "should," there's the feeling (to me) that even if the "condition" were true, the result might not be - or even is clearly false, perhaps because of some yet unmentioned factor.

It's my own shortcoming. I suppose these conditional definitions are solid. I'm just going by the way I've heard the words used by "scholarly people" for seventy years.

Should have

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