Shakespeare: Between you and...

Question

Was Shakespeare wrong when he wrote "debts are cleared between you and I" in The Merchant of Venice? Or are linguists like Noam Chomsky right in arguing that in such idioms (this one, even if grammatically incorrect, actually dating back to Middle English), "you and I" together become the objects of the preposition?

Thanks.

Yoong Liat · Accepted Answer

Nowadays, it is 'between you and me'.

Snarf · Answer

Yoong LiatNowadays, it is 'between you and me'.

You mean the rule itself changed, that is, in Shakespeare's time it was "between you and I," but now it's with a "me"? Or is it that there was no such rule in his day regarding the matter to begin with? I know the commonality nowadays, due to hyper-correction, is "between you and I," hence why it gets way more hits on Google than "between you and me."

Enoon · Answer

SnarfYou mean the rule itself changed, that is, in Shakespeare's time it was "between you and I," but now it's with a "me"? Or is it that there was no such rule in his day regarding the matter to begin with?

There were never any rules, and there still aren't. Even if there were, Shakespeare would have been above them. Besides, do you suppose that you are smarter than Shakespeare? Every other time he uses "you and I" (21) and "you and me" (5), it is the expected case. Do you suppose that you are entitled to second-guess him? That he didn't have the chops to have one of his characters use bad grammar in a letter from one Italian to another?

Yoong Liat speaks with straight tongue.

Snarf · Answer

enoonThere were never any rules, and there still aren't.

There aren't? So the only reason, then, that you can't say "between I and you," isn't that it's technically wrong but rather that it simply sounds absurd because nobody says it?

enoonYoong Liat speaks with straight tongue.

Meaning?

Enoon · Answer

SnarfThere aren't? So the only reason, then, that you can't say "between I and you," isn't that it's technically wrong but rather that it simply sounds absurd because nobody says it?

That's about it. Where are these rules you speak of? Are they written in a book? No. They are in the mind's ear of native speakers. Grammar is descriptive. It comes in after the fact and tries to explain why we say what we naturally say.

To speak with straight tongue (speak the truth) is the opposite of speaking with forked tongue (speak lies). I have always supposed that it derives from the imagined speech of the American Indian.

Snarf · Answer

So Grammar Girl, to name only one, is off the mark on this matter, I take it: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/between-you-and-me.aspx

Enoon · Answer

SnarfSo Grammar Girl, to name only one, is off the mark on this matter, I take it: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/between-you-and-me.aspx

There are many ways of looking at it. If you aren't afraid to use the word "wrong", then you can take GG's stance. Literate people who have taken the trouble to learn the language they speak say "between you and me" and wince when they hear "between you and I". Most others, who just blurt whatever is rattling around in their empty heads, don't see a problem, but the best among them at least know there's a problem and sometimes try to sound smart and fail.

Shakespeare: Between you and...

Top answer

Get the Weekly English Kit 📬

Related Questions