Sentence structure question.

Question

Hello everyone,

I am new here, so let me introduce myself a little first.

I am currently trying to get better in english writting (my third language), for two main reasons.

2. My english teachers told during the past years my writting is poor.
1. The lastest made me realize the importance of good writting skills.

Rignt now, I am studying from "The Bare Essentials+" book [moderators censor that if you consider it advertisement], and since it is confusing at times, I will stick with you for the next few weeks.

Here is my question on a 'run-on' sentence.

Consider the following sentence:
- Press on the wound that will stop the bleeding.

The (one possible) answer from the book is "Press on the wound. That will stop the bleeding"

The answer confuses me because earlier in the book it stated that a sentence beginning with 'that' is a dependent clause. This kind of clause cannot stand alone, but in the example above it does?!

By observation, here is what I came up with.
'that' + subject + verb = dependent clause
'that' + verb = independent clause (which is why the answer is correct)

I would like someone to confirm this, or correct it.

Furthermore, would one possible answer to the following sentence fragment
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages. That cause me to shop "offline". From time to time"
can be
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages, that cause me to shop "offline" from time to time".
Right?

Thanks in advance.

MountainHiker · Accepted Answer

The answer confuses me because earlier in the book it stated that a sentence beginning with 'that' is a dependent clause. This kind of clause cannot stand alone, but in the example above it does?!

I encourage you to review a discussion about "it and that" by looking at [url="http://www.EnglishForward.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=39698"]this thread here[/url]. Pay particular attention to CalifJim's answer. He does an excellent job at describing "that."

"That" is a very flexible word. It can be used as a noun, adjective, adverb, and a conjuction.

1) I am confident that interest rates will rise.

"that interest rates will rise" is not an independent clause.

2) That is very expensive.

I might be pointing to a piece of jewelry and saying, "That is very expensive." Independent clause.

Furthermore, would one possible answer to the following sentence fragment
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages. That cause me to shop "offline". From time to time"
can be
"Shopping on the Internet is convenient and, but there are a few disadvantages, that cause me to shop "offline" from time to time".

Neither is correct. Your "and, but" are incorrect.

Shopping on the Internet is convenient, but there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time.

Or you could write that as....

Shopping on the Internet is convenient; however, there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time.

Or you could write it in one of several other alternate ways.

Both "and" and "but" are coordinating conjunctions. I can't think of when you would have two coordinating conjunctions used one after the other. Here, I chose "but" because you are contrasting two ideas.

Hope this message helps.

Mister Micawber · Answer

Hi DK,

Welcome to EnglishForward.

"Press on the wound. That will stop the bleeding". The 'that' is not a relative pronoun for a dependent clause. It is a different word (with a different pronounciation); it is the demonstrative pronoun for 'pressing on the wound'.

I have not pursued all possibilities generated by your discovered rule, but I would suggest that it may be better, or at least more widely-understood, to consider them homographs (different words with the same spelling).

Regarding your Internet shopping sentence, the 'and, but' makes even your corrected version unintelligible, and there is one too many commas, because the 'that' initiates a restrictive clause. 'Offline' need not be set off by quotation marks. If I may correct it:

"Shopping on the Internet is convenient, but there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time".

Darkneon · Answer

Hi guys and thanks for the replies.

First, I must point out that there was a mistake within the "Shopping on the Internet" sentence. It should have been "Shopping on the Internet is convenient and [efficient], but there are a few disadvantages that cause me to shop offline from time to time."

Thank you MountainHiker for the link, which was very informative but did not make my confusion go away. I am confused whether a clause containing "that" is independent or not?

So far, and based on what you two have written, it seems "that" is independent when it represents the subject and it is not otherwise?

Also, if you change "Press" to "Pressing" then "Pressing on the wound. That will stop the bleeding" would be incorrect because "Pressing on the wound" is dependent? Moreover, "Pressing on the wound, that will stop the bleeding" would be a correct solution?

Am I right?

Thanks
Bye

Mister Micawber · Answer

Hello again, Neon.

Regarding these two words, please listen again:

Some dependent clauses begin with 'that', the restrictive relative pronoun. (Other dependent clauses begin with 'which', a restrictive and non-restrictive pronoun.)

However, 'that' as a demonstrative pronoun or demonstrative adjective is a different word; it is not related in usage, pronunciation, or meaning to the relative pronoun. It can indeed be used in independent clauses: 'I'm hungry, and that is why I am eating this hamburger'. It can also appear in dependent clauses: I've heard that's your third hamburger today.'

Both can appear in the same sentence: 'I've heard that that is your third hamburger today.' They are two different words with two different functions.

It is much more realistic to understand the two 'that's as different words, than to try to build structural 'rules' to govern their usage.

Regarding 'press/pressing', my original suggestion is what you should follow. I stated that the demonstrative pronoun 'that' represents 'pressing on the wound', which phrase does not appear in the lead sentence. If you wish to extend the demonstrative pronoun:

'Press on the wound. Pressing on the wound will stop the bleeding' is the correct solution.

And that's that.

Darkneon · Answer

Thanks Mister Micawber for replying again.

I will do some research on the restrictive relative pronoun and the demonstrative pronoun. Only after, I will muse on all this.

Just a quick question, how do you recognize that the clause that's your third hamburger today is dependent where 'that' is used as a demonstrative pronoun? I do not see on what you base on?

Good bye

Mister Micawber · Answer

There are two that's in a row, and one of them (although elided in one example and present in the other) must be the relative pronoun, thus creating a restrictive dependent clause... and the demonstrative that is within that clause.

Darkneon · Answer

I did not know the relative 'that' was omitted in the first example. In fact, I thought there where two different sentences.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the omitted relative that in 'I've heard that's your third hamburger today.' made the second clause dependent?

Now, if this is correct then the demonstrative that did not create the dependent clause.

Again, if the above is correct, can you think of a dependant clause created by a demonstrative that (and where there is no omitted relative that or any other word(s) that make a clause dependent)?

I am waiting for your answer.

Mister Micawber · Answer

Nope, I didn't say the DP created the clause, it just appears in it. Demonstratives do not create (or, more properly 'introduce'), dependent clauses, RPs do-- that's the point of this discussion.

Incidentally, the RP 'that' is also considered a complementizer by some.

Darkneon · Answer

Good!

It got me startled for a minute

, but if we can agree that a DP can introduce an independent clause and a RP can introduce an dependent clause, let end the discussion about the 'that' pronoun here (a nevertheless enlighting discussion).

I still have some other questions about structure sentence however.

Consider the following sentences from my book.

1. Canadians are people who will travel to the United States to buy cheap cigarettes, then return home for cancer treatement paid by Canadian taxpayers.

Q. Should not there be an 'and' right before the 'then'? I mean we have two independent clauses, and a comma is too weak to join them.

However, I have seen many where there is no 'and', so I am wondering if both structrures (with and without 'and') are grammatically correct?

2. Then we sat up drinking coffee until three o'clock, gossiping about our friends.

Q. What is gossiping about our friends? It has no subject (unless 'gossiping' fulfill this function) nor verb, so it cannot be a clause. I do not understand the use of the comma to join this part.

Thanks again

Mister Micawber · Answer

Good, I'm tired of that and that too.

Commas! Ah, wonderful tools are they-- much more than other punctuation marks, they are free to do their job of making the written word clear.

As far as I am concerned, we need neither an 'and' nor a comma before (1) 'then' or (2) 'gossiping', because the clauses are short enough for the relationships to show clearly without any help from conjunctions or punctuation.

Commas are certainly not too weak to join independent clauses. Observe this series:

I sing and my brother dances.
I sing very well, and my brother does too.
I sing, he dances: what a team!
First I sing, then he dances.
We stayed up all night dancing.
We stayed up all night dancing, singing and drinking.
We stayed up all night dancing with the girls, singing at the piano, and drinking cheap beer, and I finally got home at 4 a.m.
We stayed up, they kept dancing, and John went home early.

There are many permutations.

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