Selling?

Question

Passive forms1. It recently broke the record of having been sold at a high price of.. - This sentence is correct.2. It recently broke the record of being sold at a high price of..- This sentence is correct.Active forms1. It recently broke the record of having sold at a high price of.. - This sentence is correct.2. It recently broke the record of selling at a high price of.. =&gt; My question is whether this sentence is correct in terms of a grammar use and does it make sense then? Does it take the same meaning as this active sentence 1. It recently broke the record of having sold at a high price of..?I'd be grateful if anyone could make me clear about the last sentence and thus to my complete satisfaction, answer the questions concerning the last sentence.Thank you very much in advance.

Grammarfreak · Accepted Answer

Marold1. It recently broke the record of having been sold at a high price of.. - This sentence is correct.2. It recently broke the record of being sold at a high price of..- This sentence is correct.

Yes, both, as I said earlier in your other post, are correct passive sentences.

MaroldActive forms1. It recently broke the record of having sold at a high price of.. - This sentence is correct.2. It recently broke the record of selling at a high price of..

I also said, "it" can not sell itself. The red is an incorrect active sentence as constructed. But it is acceptable to say: Gold recently broke the record trading / selling over $1600 an oz .

CalifJim · Answer

Maroldhaving been sold ...

You are working with one of those verbs that has three grammatical patterns where most verbs have only two.

1 Tom sold the painting.
2 The painting was sold by Tom.
3 The painting sold quickly at the auction.

1 Active voice.
2 Passive voice.
3 Middle voice.
[3 is active in form; passive in meaning. This pattern is also called an adverbial passive.]

The patterns you labeled "Active" in your post are actually middle voice constructions.
______________

1a. Tom's selling the painting at $100,000 broke the record.
1b. Tom's having sold the painting at $100,000 broke the record.

2a. The painting( 's) being sold (by Tom) at $100,000 broke the record.
2b. The painting( 's) having been sold (by Tom) at $100,000 broke the record.

3a. The painting( 's) selling at $100,000 broke the record.
3b. The painting( 's) having sold at $100,000 broke the record.

The a and b of each pair above have the same meaning, but the a form is better than the b form if you change broke to will break.
______________

In short, you can use the construction in your "Active" - Sentence 2. It means the same as your "Active" - Sentence 1.

In practice these constructions can be quite awkward, so they are only rarely used, and certainly not in ordinary conversations.

CJ

Marold · Answer

I think I understand what you are getting at. It cannot be explained better!

Thank you very much for your precious time spent on this fantastic post.

However, I still have a little question on my mind.

1a. Tom is selling the painting at $100,000 broke the record. - Tom's = Tom is in this case, I think
1b. Tom's having sold the painting at $100,000 broke the record. - What does Tom's here stand for?

2a. The painting( 's) being sold (by Tom) at $100,000 broke the record. - The painting( 's) = The painting is
2b. The painting( 's) having been sold (by Tom) at $100,000 broke the record. - What is it here?

3a. The painting( 's) selling at $100,000 broke the record.
3b. The painting( 's) having sold at $100,000 broke the record. - The same here

I am really grateful, thank you again, CJ.

CalifJim · Answer

MaroldTom is selling the painting at $100,000 broke the record. - Tom's = Tom is in this case, I think

Yikes, no!

No, Tom's is the possessive here. The possessive is used as the subject of a gerund clause, though the 's is often omitted, which I indicated in parentheses when the subject was inanimate (painting).

I don't object to [Tom's going on vacation next week].
I don't object to [Tom going on vacation next week].

These are like: I don't object to the fact that Tom [is / will be] going on vacation next week.

With pronouns:
Gary is relying on [my being there] to help.
Gary is relying on [me being there] to help.

These are like: Gary is relying on the fact that I [am / will be] there to help.
_______________

Likewise for the other two examples.

CJ

Marold · Answer

Oh my ***, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. Now I totally know what you mean...It only confused me a little, as I am not used to seeing this kind of complex (for me) stuff too often.

Tom's functions here as a possesive for a gerund clause! It should have struck me sooner!

Now I proved myself as a total idiot, hihi. Trying to grasp complicated grammar isn't sometimes worth it.

CalifJim · Answer

MaroldIt should have struck me sooner!

Not to worry. It happens to everyone.

By the way, you can prove that 's isn't is by taking an example with a plural.

The professor does not object to the students' bringing laptop computers to class.

You can't have "students is"; it would be "students are", which would be expressed as students're if it were contracted, and in English we never see such things as ... object to the students're bringing laptop computers to class.

CJ

Marold · Answer

You are such a great teacher! I wish I had you instead of our english teacher, since you could answer all my questions correctly and clearly.

I think that at my age (17 years old stundent) I can afford to make some mistakes in my judgement, because there is still some time to improve my english knowledge and to extend it as well.

Hopefully, the last question that I would like to ask you would be this:

Gary is relying on [my being there] to help.
Gary is relying on [me being there] to help.

I don't object to [Tom's going on vacation next week].
I don't object to [Tom going on vacation next week].

I've been thinking of the differences between, for example: [my being there], [me being there] from your made-up sentences. Once I've been told that there is a difference in formality. Do you see any difference as a native speaker?

CalifJim · Answer

MaroldI think that at my age (17 years old stundent) I can afford to make some mistakes in my judgement, because there is still some time to improve

Yes, indeed. I suppose this means that at my age (105 years old) I can't afford to make any mistakes.

MaroldI've been thinking of the differences between, for example: [my being there], [me being there] from your made-up sentences. Once I've been told that there is a difference in formality. Do you see any difference as a native speaker?

Most of the time when listening to people in everyday conversations I don't notice a difference, though it is true that people consider the possessive case more formal than the objective case in front of a gerund.

What I find is that it is very specific to the expressions in the whole sentence. There are some sentences where the possessive case just seems wrong; there are other sentences where the objective case just seems wrong. I have never been able to isolate the factors that make one form seem right and another wrong to me in different sentences. Maybe one day I'll do some serious introspection on the problem and find an answer.

CJ

Marold · Answer

Well, on the whole, you are wise and prudent enough to avoid doing them and I believe that your experiences are wide in all areas, and it is also said that one learns from one's mistakes.

and as you say, everybody makes them, so that is my time to say: not to worry

.

Although I applied mistakes rather particularly to grammar ones, it can be interpreted as everyone wishes. And you are actually much younger, sir, do not underestimate (or at least, young in your soul).

What I should especially focus on, should be other things in a language rather than to be so much interested in trifles and particularly slight differences or even none. But thank you anyway, I will bear your words in my mind. And drop me a line the moment when you've done some closer introspection.

CalifJim · Answer

Maroldyou are actually much younger

I may have added a few years to my age for comic effect.

MaroldWhat I should especially focus on should be other things in a language ...

Maybe, but there are many paths through the different facets on any language. I don't see any problem with going wherever your interests take you. There's no rule that says you have to go through a language in a certain order. If you keep at it, eventually you'll get through it all.

CJ

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