Secular

Question

The word "secular" is another word that confuses me, a non-native learner.
In dictionary, I found these two definitions:
(1) Occurring or observed once in an age or century; (2) Lasting from century to century.
It seems to me two definition contradict each other. When I see a sentence like "Nokia's outsourcing is a secular trend", without knowing the business practice of Nokia, I could not be sure that if the trend "occurs once in an age" or "lasts a long period". Do you agree?
Kevin in Hong Kong

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]The word "secular" is another word that confuses me, a non-native learner. In dictionary, I found these two definitions: (1) ... not be sure that if the trend "occurs once in an age" or "lasts a long period". Do you agree?[/nq]
Trends don't really occur. They develop. We don't know how long a trend will last, so a "secular trend" is something that looks like it will last for a long time. The duration is not known. So, choosing between these definitions in M-W:
1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal b not overtly or specifically religious c : not ecclesiastical or clerical
2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relatingto, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation
3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuingthrough ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration
we choose 3c.

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]When I see a sentence like "Nokia's outsourcing is a secular trend", without knowing the business practice of Nokia, I could not be sure that if the trend "occurs once in an age" or "lasts a long period". Do you agree?[/nq]
The sentence doesn't make sense to me, either. Nokia hasn't been around long enough to have secular trends.
A secular trend is often one that isn't linked to a specific age of history or a specific generation. It has been used to describe things like raw IQ scores (which have tended to rise slowly ever since the invention of IQ tests) and human height (which has increased slowly from generation to generation in the last century or two, although this is obviously not a trend that has or will last forever).
Most often secular means "not religious" or "not sacred."

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The word "secular" is another word that confuses me, a non-native learner. In dictionary, I found these two definitions: (1) ... not be sure that if the trend "occurs once in an age" or "lasts a long period". Do you agree?[/nq]
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular trend
The secular variation (also secular trend or secular drift) of a time series is its long-term non-periodic variation, as opposed to its periodic variation.
"Nokia's outsourcing is a secular trend" means that Nokia's outsourcing is increasing when measured over a long period. There may be temporary decreases, but the overall trends is upwards.
Consider these numbers:
1, 5, 3, 4, 7, 6, 10, 4, 13, 9, 12, 11, 4, 12, 16, 15, etc.

The values do not go steadily upwards. In many cases a number is less than the previous one but the overall trend (the secular trend) is upwards.

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Usenet · Answer

In tony cooper posted on Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:45:46 -0400 the following:
[nq:1]Trends don't really occur. They develop. We don't know how long a trend will last, so a "secular trend" is ... ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration we choose 3c.[/nq]
That's what irritates me about the English language. There are so many words that have nearly the same definition, and so many single words that have many different definitions within their dictionary entries. If they can come up with a bunch of different words that mean the same thing, why can't they use "secular" to distinguish from "religious", then use some other word to talk about something that only happens once in an age, or something that exists through the ages. To me, "aeonic" or "eonic" seems like a better word than "secular" for something that lasts through the ages.
Damaeus

"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men." -Harry Anslinger (1929), Federal Bureau of Narcotics

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]That's what irritates me about the English language. There are so many words that have nearly the same definition, and so many single words that have many different definitions within their dictionary entries.[/nq]
Other languages work in exactly the same way. It's a characteristic of natural languages in general.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Trends don't really occur. They develop. We don't know how ... long term of indefinite duration we choose 3c.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's what irritates me about the English language.[/nq]
What is your native language?
[nq:1]There are so many words that have nearly the same definition, and so many single words that have many different definitions within their dictionary entries.[/nq]
Is that not equally true of your own language?
[nq:1]If they[/nq]
Who are "they"? Do you suppose that languages are created by committees?
[nq:1]can come up with a bunch of different words that mean the same thing, why can't they use "secular" to ... other word to talk about something that only happens once in an age, or something that exists through the ages.[/nq]
Two answers:
1. These things were not decided by a committee.
2. Nobody cares, because there is no ambiguity, as the context makes itclear which sense is meant. (Well, maybe "nobody" is too strong, because there is at least one person who cares to the depth of his being that "rare" has a different meaning in cooking from its meaning in everyday life, but he's certainly a minority in this group, and I suspect he's in a minority in the world at large.)
[nq:1]To me, "aeonic" or "eonic" seems like a better word than "secular"[/nq]
What does "better" mean in this context? An aeon traditionally referred to the age of the universe, or 14 billion years, and an eon in geology is less than that, but still a very long time vastly longer than a century. (Even if you're a young-earth creationist an aeon is still a lot of centuries.)
[nq:1]for something that lasts through the ages.[/nq]
Even if your committee decided to coin this word, whow would they enforce its use? How would they prevent the meaning changing over time? the English "epoch" and French "époque" presumably started out meaning the same thing, but in English an epoch is a very long period of time, whereas in French you can say "À l'époque, je ... " to refer to something that happened last year.

athel

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Even if your committee decided to coin this word, whow would they enforce its use? How would they prevent the ... time, whereas in French you can say "À l'époque, je ... " to refer to something that happened last year.[/nq]
Well it's better than époque in the eye I suppose.

(¯`·. ®óñ© © ²°¹° .·´¯)

Usenet · Answer

In Athel Cornish-Bowden posted on Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:23:18 +0200 the following:
[nq:2]That's what irritates me about the English language.[/nq]
[nq:1]What is your native language?[/nq]
English, and it's my only language. I was once interested in learning other languages, but decided that I would rather spend my time focusing on tuning my use of English, rather than devoting the effort to using a whole new language. I've never had a lasting need to use Spanish, even living in Texas. However, when I used to deal with the public, I did feel a little bad about myself when nobody at work could speak Spanish to help customers who had never learned English. My first desire to learn Spanish stemmed from wanting to feel like a hero sometimes, like being the only one at work who could speak Spanish.
[nq:2]There are so many words that have nearly the same definition, and so many single words that have many different definitions within their dictionary entries.[/nq]
[nq:1]Is that not equally true of your own language?[/nq]
I was referring to my own language when I wrote that.
[nq:2]If they[/nq]
[nq:1]Who are "they"?[/nq]
The people who decided what words went into the dictionaries and how they were defined. Who else would I be talking about? Gilbert & Sullivan?
[nq:1]Do you suppose that languages are created by committees?[/nq]
Languages are usually created by people, but in a society that's now global, some people have tried to come up with a standard for various reasons.
[nq:2]can come up with a bunch of different words that ... in an age, or something that exists through the ages.[/nq]
[nq:1]Two answers: 1. These things were not decided by a committee.[/nq]
I wouldn't say that. There are people who believe that you can control a population by controlling the language it has access to. So at some point in history, certain words could have been left out of all the dictionaries to keep people from having words to describe certain things. Of course, in this day and age, with more people being literate, people do find words they need to talk about things, which, in the past, the authorities didn't want discussed by the public. Just the fact that there was a time when the public was not allowed to read the Bible illustrates how what I'm saying is possible.
[nq:1]2. Nobody cares, because there is no ambiguity, as the context makes it clear which sense is meant.[/nq]
I know, and that wasn't the point of my response. All I meant was that it would be better if "secular" always meant "of or relating to worldly things as distinguished from things relating to church and religion", every time, without exception.
[nq:2]To me, "aeonic" or "eonic" seems like a better word than "secular"[/nq]
[nq:1]What does "better" mean in this context?[/nq]
What do you mean, what does "better" mean in this context? As far as I know, "better" only has one meaning. It means superior, a cut above the others. In what /way/ something is better depends on how the word is used.
[nq:2]for something that lasts through the ages.[/nq]
[nq:1]Even if your committee decided to coin this word, whow would they enforce its use?[/nq]
"Aeonic" doesn't need to be coined. It already exists.

aeonic is already defined by Merriam-Webster:
lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long
period of time
[nq:1]How would they prevent the meaning changing over time?[/nq]
Timecops? ****, I don't know. I don't even care. I'm just trying to pass the time, not start a vocabulary war.
Damaeus

"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men." -Harry Anslinger (1929), Federal Bureau of Narcotics

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Trends don't really occur. They develop. We don't know how ... long term of indefinite duration we choose 3c.[/nq]
[nq:1]That's what irritates me about the English language. There are so many words that have nearly the same definition, and ... their dictionary entries. If they can come up with a bunch of different words that mean the same thing, why[/nq]
If Gilbert and Sullivan could come up with a bunch of different words that mean the same thing, wouldn't that make their song lyrics more interesting?
[nq:1]can't they use "secular" to distinguish from "religious", then use some other word to talk about something that only happens ... To me, "aeonic" or "eonic" seems like a better word than "secular" for something that lasts through the ages. Damaeus[/nq]
Posters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis 7 years
Chicago 6 years
Brooklyn, NY 12 years
Baltimore 26 years

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