Say(ing)

Question

Which is correct:"I heard him say that.."or"I heard him saying that .."Or are both acceptable?

Usenet · Accepted Answer

Longer time line with saying than with say.
For example (implied meaning is in parentheses):
I heard him say (just once - he didn't say it again) that the earth is flat.
I heard him saying (over and over again) that the earth is flat.

Usenet · Answer

Hi
[nq:1]I heard him saying (over and over again) that the earth is flat.[/nq]
What about: "I heard his saying that ..."?
That's what I was told in preparation for my TOEFL :-) (I was a bit surprised then... there were only a few traps like this one in total)
Markus

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]What about: "I heard his saying that ..."?[/nq]
Here, the word saying changes from a present partciple (PP) of the infinitive "to say" to a gerund (verb > noun) as evidenced by the possesive adjective "his"
"Saying" as a gerund conveys the same meaning as an "adage" or a "saw."

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]What about: "I heard his saying that ..."?[/nq]
[nq:1]Here, the word saying changes from a present partciple (PP) of the infinitive "to say" to a gerund (verb > noun) as evidenced by the possesive adjective "his" "Saying" as a gerund conveys the same meaning as an "adage" or a "saw."[/nq]
OK, KC, this one goes back to you. TOEFL prep stufff is notorious for overemphasizing the possessive pronouns and adjectives as the proper subject of the gerund. ETS, the company that produces the TOEFL, has a long history of emphasizing this form in its many tests. The most spectacular example of the problem can be found in the GMAT's Verbal section. Anyone familiar with ETS but not too familiar with the TOEFL in general can be counted on to pound the possessive form in what they write...and since the bulk of TOEFL prep material is put together cheaply by contract writers, there's a lot of overemphasis on the form in TOEFL prep.
There are good reasons for ETS's preference which are based on US/UK English language snobbery, namely, American usage manuals generally insist on possessive subjects in comparison with British usage manuals, which are not so fussy about it.
Denny's point above is technically correct, but KC, you are never going to see that form tested on the TOEFL in that way, and you will not be forced to produce language of that complexity to do well on the TOEFL.

Let's try to clear this up:

Here's the general rule you probably learned in your TOEFL prep:

An ing-form acting as a noun-like word (which is more or less what a gerund is) when modified by a subject that comes in from of it, should take a possessive form as that subject, as in:
I object to his smoking at home. (more proper)
I object to Jim's smoking at home. (more proper)
I object to Jim smoking at hime. (less proper)
I object to him smoking at hime. (less proper)
The subject of the gerund is "Jim/Jim's" here.

The fire was smoking when I woke up.
"Smoking" here acts as a verb. There's no confusion here, because there's no pronoun in front of it, and it's clearly part of a past continous verb tense.

In your example, hear somebody saying something, is "saying" acting as a noun? No. Therefore, it wouldn't take a possessive subject.

So, while Denny is right, I think what's actually happened is that you've taken a general guideline regarding gerunds that was overemphasized in your TOEFL prep work by an incompetent author (some kind of (Red Alert! All Hands to Battle Stations!) section, I'll bet) and expanded it to include all ing-forms that are not clearly part of continuous verb tenses.
Good luck.

Usenet · Answer

Hi
[nq:1]OK, KC, this one goes back to you.[/nq]
I'll answer anyway

(a lot about the TOEFL)
[nq:1]So, while Denny is right, I think what's actually happened is that you've taken a general guideline regarding gerunds that ... Stations!) section, I'll bet) and expanded it to include all ing-forms that are not clearly part of continuous verb tenses.[/nq]
I didn't take the TOEFL preparation book too serious (the English language is too closely related to German, and yes, it was a really cheap book... in every possible aspect)
To me, "I heard him saying" sounded and still sounds more correct than "I heard his saying" ( except when really meaning adage and/or saw (thanks for two new words, Denny ;-)) .
But then, as I spent half a year in western Canada and people there admitted that they had no idea about grammar, I have always been a little in doubt whether every-day English is really correct in a strict sense or not.

Markus

Usenet · Answer

"credoquaabsurdum" (Email Removed) schreef in bericht
[nq:2]Here, the word saying changes from a present partciple (PP) ... conveys the same meaning as an "adage" or a "saw."[/nq]
[nq:1]OK, KC, this one goes back to you. TOEFL prep stufff is notorious for overemphasizing the possessive pronouns and adjectives ... I'll bet) and expanded it to include all ing-forms that are not clearly part of continuous verb tenses. Good luck.[/nq]
Thanks, credoquaabsurdum. I'm not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say, though. My original question was about the verb: say(ing). I never doubted it was anything but a verb of full meaning.

"I heard him say that.." vs. "I heard him saying that.."

Denny said that the latter form implied a longer timeline. That sounds pretty logical, given the normal use of the progressive.

As to gerunds and possessives, what is your verdict on the following:

"I really admire his working with those underpriviliged students" ?

Thanks for responding,
KC

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]As to gerunds and possessives, what is your verdict on the following: "I really admire his working with those underpriviliged students" ? Thanks for responding, KC[/nq]
Oh...did I botch this the first time. I haven't posted on this board for a while.
Sorry Markus.
KC, now.
On "his working with underprivileged students..."
I vote in favor of it in opposition to "him working with underprivileged students," although I would probably say, "his work with underprivileged students" if I did not need to use the ing-form for one reason or another.

There is a two-page article on this topic in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage (currently the premier US style guide) and a one-and-a-half page article on this in Fowler's Modern English Usage, 3rd edition (currently the premier UK style guide). Merriam-Webster's contends that native speakers, educated or uneducated, have no problem with this usage, while Fowler's insists that the possessive form is "in retreat."
KC, if you're a non-native speaker of English and you're just learning English for the sake of English and not preparing for one or another standardized test, well, anyone who insists that you MUST use this structure or be considered illiterate is a real piece of work.

If you're a native speaker who's just curious about the language...well, buy a style guide, if you've got a lot of questions like these.
If you're a professional language teacher working with advanced-level language students, you really have no choice but to get both UK and US style guides, preferably the ones I just mentioned. It'll set you back a fair bit, and every five years or so you'll be forced to update your library, but the peace of mind you'll get is worth it. You really can't trust answers offered up by strangers on the Usenet, and you'll never have to *** your students and risk your credibility.

I mean, I SAY I'm an English language teacher working in Greece, but where's your proof I'm not some eighty-year-old retiree out on the Upper Peninsula, trying to prove to myself and the world that I'm not over the hill?

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