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Usenet Posted 18 years ago
Screenwriting
"save the cat" thoughts
I'd heard a lot about this book so I thought I'd take a look at it and while what Snyder says as with many of these "paradigm" books, certainly applies to a lot of movies and can certainly *be* applied to a screenplay and yield a successful screenplay (or, of course, an unsuccessful one, since no particular formula or paradigm is going to guarantee a successful final product) as with every other paradigm, my sense is that he's preaching an awful lot of absolutes that are just flat out wrong.
Now, if he were saying this is a formula that applies to what execs are buying today the kind of formula that studios are applying now at the movies they're buying and developing so here's the formula. Apply it and you'll have a better chance of selling, then I think I'd be more forgiving.
But that's not what he's saying. He's saying things like "this or that" goes back to caveman times that these are eternal verities about story-telling or movie-making.
Especially some of the things he says about the nature of the protagonist.
The protagonist has to be introduced up front. We've got to identify with him, like him, know his goal. He's got to be pro-active, drive the story forward throughout.
And he might say well, sure, there are these little indie, experimental type movies that are off the narrative track that might not apply.
But then there are movies like Psycho, like Dr. Strangelove, like The Godfather, like Casablanca.
Heros neither introduced up front, nor particularly likeable (whoever you consider the hero to be) in Psycho.
No hero introduced up front, nor any one hero driving the story forward in Strangelove.
Michael Corleone, while certainly the hero of the Godfather, does virtually nothing through most of the first act, is then sequestered in a minor story off in Sicily for a substantial portion of the second act not driving the story forward at all.
And while Snyder takes a potshot at Hamlet, you don't have to go back to Shakespeare to find a story with a character who can't make up his mind. Rick in Casablanca has to stand out in the history of modern movies as the central - NON-pro-active character. The original play was called "Everybody goes to Rick's" and that's really what this thing is about. Rick's got the letters of transit (and it opens with Ugarti coming to him, begging for help. What does he do? Nothing! He let's him be dragged away and executed). And everybody keeps coming to him. The Police Commissioner comes to him. The Nazis come to him. The leader of the resistance comes to him. His old lover who caused him to become embittered comes to him.
And what does he do for virtually the entire movie? Nothing. At any rate, he does nothing about the letters of transit. He refuses to act.
In fact, it is his refusal to act (or perhaps it makes more sense to say his "inability" to act) that drives the entire story.
None of these movies fit conveniently into Snyder's paradigm. None of them could be tucked into his diagramatic breakdown (even expanded to make room for the extra length of the Godfather).
And all of these movies are mainstream successful Hollywood films (and don't talk to me about Kubrick being an indie in disguise Strangelove was a Hollywood movie, released by a major and it made a lot of money).
Which only convinces me that, with this book, as with all of these "how-to" paradigms one size definitely does not fit all.
NMS
Now, if he were saying this is a formula that applies to what execs are buying today the kind of formula that studios are applying now at the movies they're buying and developing so here's the formula. Apply it and you'll have a better chance of selling, then I think I'd be more forgiving.
But that's not what he's saying. He's saying things like "this or that" goes back to caveman times that these are eternal verities about story-telling or movie-making.
Especially some of the things he says about the nature of the protagonist.
The protagonist has to be introduced up front. We've got to identify with him, like him, know his goal. He's got to be pro-active, drive the story forward throughout.
And he might say well, sure, there are these little indie, experimental type movies that are off the narrative track that might not apply.
But then there are movies like Psycho, like Dr. Strangelove, like The Godfather, like Casablanca.
Heros neither introduced up front, nor particularly likeable (whoever you consider the hero to be) in Psycho.
No hero introduced up front, nor any one hero driving the story forward in Strangelove.
Michael Corleone, while certainly the hero of the Godfather, does virtually nothing through most of the first act, is then sequestered in a minor story off in Sicily for a substantial portion of the second act not driving the story forward at all.
And while Snyder takes a potshot at Hamlet, you don't have to go back to Shakespeare to find a story with a character who can't make up his mind. Rick in Casablanca has to stand out in the history of modern movies as the central - NON-pro-active character. The original play was called "Everybody goes to Rick's" and that's really what this thing is about. Rick's got the letters of transit (and it opens with Ugarti coming to him, begging for help. What does he do? Nothing! He let's him be dragged away and executed). And everybody keeps coming to him. The Police Commissioner comes to him. The Nazis come to him. The leader of the resistance comes to him. His old lover who caused him to become embittered comes to him.
And what does he do for virtually the entire movie? Nothing. At any rate, he does nothing about the letters of transit. He refuses to act.
In fact, it is his refusal to act (or perhaps it makes more sense to say his "inability" to act) that drives the entire story.
None of these movies fit conveniently into Snyder's paradigm. None of them could be tucked into his diagramatic breakdown (even expanded to make room for the extra length of the Godfather).
And all of these movies are mainstream successful Hollywood films (and don't talk to me about Kubrick being an indie in disguise Strangelove was a Hollywood movie, released by a major and it made a lot of money).
Which only convinces me that, with this book, as with all of these "how-to" paradigms one size definitely does not fit all.
NMS
Top answer
[nq:1]The protagonist has to be introduced up front. We've got to identify with him, like him, know his goal. [/nq] Doesn't Bill Martel make a pretty good case for the antagonist driving action movies?
- [nq:1]The protagonist has to be introduced up front.
- We've got to identify with him, like him, know his goal.
- [/nq] Doesn't Bill Martel make a pretty good case for the antagonist driving action movies?
- " Without the antagonist there was no reason for the protagonist to exist.
- The story is really about the antagonist.
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8 Answers
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[nq:1]The protagonist has to be introduced up front. We've got to identify with him, like him, know his goal. He's got to be pro-active, drive the story forward throughout.[/nq]
Doesn't Bill Martel make a pretty good case for the antagonist driving action movies? I think one of his prime examples is "Speed." Without the antagonist there was no reason for the protagonist to exist. The story is
Doesn't Bill Martel make a pretty good case for the antagonist driving action movies? I think one of his prime examples is "Speed." Without the antagonist there was no reason for the protagonist to exist. The story is
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I'm in the process of rewriting my book - and part of the rewrite is a reaction to SAVE THE CAT.
Though the opening to my book has always said "Tools not rules" and explained that any page number mentioned is a ballpark, not an actual page number... I'm trying to remove all of the page numbers. That seems cookie cutter - and could lead to some writer trying to do a connect the dots script. If
Though the opening to my book has always said "Tools not rules" and explained that any page number mentioned is a ballpark, not an actual page number... I'm trying to remove all of the page numbers. That seems cookie cutter - and could lead to some writer trying to do a connect the dots script. If
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[nq:1]I'm in the process of rewriting my book - and part of the rewrite is a reaction to SAVE THE ... stories - but always exceptions. There is only one rule in screenwriting - the script has to work. - Bill[/nq]
If computers could write scripts, they'd all be Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer.
If computers could write scripts, they'd all be Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer.
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[nq:1]But then there are movies like Psycho, like Dr. Strangelove, like The Godfather, like Casablanca.[/nq]
As well as most coming-of-age stories - Bambi comes to mind.
It sounds like Snyder's paradigm only works for obvious, hero-driven movies, like Jason and the Argonauts. Most modern hero's journeys have the main character going after one thing (the gold) and getting someth
As well as most coming-of-age stories - Bambi comes to mind.
It sounds like Snyder's paradigm only works for obvious, hero-driven movies, like Jason and the Argonauts. Most modern hero's journeys have the main character going after one thing (the gold) and getting someth
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[nq:1]I'm in the process of rewriting my book - and part of the rewrite is a reaction to SAVE THE ... stories - but always exceptions. There is only one rule in screenwriting - the script has to work. - Bill[/nq]
Were you in town when Syd's book first came out? It was the only reference book around with any kind of disagram. I'd have development people call me and say X didn't land on p. 28, t
Were you in town when Syd's book first came out? It was the only reference book around with any kind of disagram. I'd have development people call me and say X didn't land on p. 28, t
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[nq:2]But then there are movies like Psycho, like Dr. Strangelove, like The Godfather, like Casablanca.[/nq]
[nq:1]As well as most coming-of-age stories - Bambi comes to mind. It sounds like Snyder's paradigm only works for obvious, hero-driven movies, like Jason and the Argonauts. Most modern hero's journeys have the main character going after one thing (the gold) and getting somethin
[nq:1]As well as most coming-of-age stories - Bambi comes to mind. It sounds like Snyder's paradigm only works for obvious, hero-driven movies, like Jason and the Argonauts. Most modern hero's journeys have the main character going after one thing (the gold) and getting somethin
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[nq:1]I'd heard a lot about this book so I thought I'd take a look at it and while what Snyder ... that, with this book, as with all of these "how-to" paradigms one size definitely does not fit all. NMS[/nq]
Kind of off your subject, but I just thought I'd complain a little.
Recently I read "Shadow Moon" by George Lucas and Chris Claremont.
Why? A week moment I was in the lib
Kind of off your subject, but I just thought I'd complain a little.
Recently I read "Shadow Moon" by George Lucas and Chris Claremont.
Why? A week moment I was in the lib
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[nq:1]But then there are movies like Psycho, like Dr. Strangelove, like The Godfather, like Casablanca.[/nq]
Snyder seems pretty up front that he writes mid-range Disney familyesque genre, so if you submit one these days be sure there is a scene early on with the protag up in a tree, but as he grabs the cue kitten he should realize he's allergic, fall out of the tree landing in the back seat o
Snyder seems pretty up front that he writes mid-range Disney familyesque genre, so if you submit one these days be sure there is a scene early on with the protag up in a tree, but as he grabs the cue kitten he should realize he's allergic, fall out of the tree landing in the back seat o
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