Same man that I was

Question

Grammar books say that "I am not the same man that I was" or "I am not the same man I was" is correct, but it's not correct to say "I am not the same man who I was."  Why not?

Ferdis · Accepted Answer

Well, it should be 'whom' as far as I know. Is it still not allowed then? What do these books say exactly?

CalifJim · Answer

AnonymousGrammar books say that "I am not the same man that I was" or "I am not the same man I was" is correct, but it's not correct to say "I am not the same man who I was." Why not?

This involves a rather subtle point. "same man" can't be taken literally. There are not really two different men here, one not being the same as the other. It's impossible for a person not to be the same person in the literal sense. This word pattern has to be taken as an idiom. "same man" becomes adjectival in nature. The meaning is figurative: I do not have the same qualities that I used to have. I have changed.

The same idiomatic pattern occurs no matter what adjective is used before man (or woman) in that context.

He is not the intelligent man (that) he was. = He is not as intelligent as he used to be. not the intelligent man that = not as intelligent as

She is not the frivolous woman (that) she was. = She is not as frivolous as she used to be. not the frivolous woman that = not as frivolous as

But with "same man", the specific quality is left out. The exact difference is left to the imagination or supplied by the context.

I am not the same man (that) I was. = I used to be a certain way. Now I am different. not the same man that = not the same as

Even the word same can be left out.

I am not the man (that) I was.
___

Note that who (or whom) can be used when the statement can be taken to be literally true, that is, when there really are two people, one not the same as the other.

He is not the (same) man who called me last night.
She is not the (same) woman whom I met at the conference.

CJ

Ferdis · Answer

Interesting, CJ. So it is purely idiomatic? What about a sentence like, "I was a different man back then, who was capable of terrible things."

Anonymous · Answer

That's the BEST explanation that I've ever found.  Thank you SO much.

CalifJim · Answer

That's fine. It's like saying this:

I was a different man back then. I was capable of terrible things (then).

There's a big difference between who was capable of ... and who I was. For one thing, who is the subject in the first one, and I is the subject of the second one. So the grammar is different. Thus, you can also have:

I am not the (same) man who was capable of terrible things.

Besides, the grammar of different is not the same as the grammar of same.
The choice between that and who/whom doesn't occur here, because than or from is used.

I am different than I was back then.
I am a different man than I was back then.
I am different from what I was back then.
I am a different man from what I was back then.

(But note what I was, not who I was, in the last two.)

CJ

Ferdis · Answer

Ah, I see, because if you want to add whom to "I am a different man than I was back then." you end up with the same problem in "I am a different man than [the man whom] I was back then" and then 'that' should be used as you explained.

Thanks, CJ. My understanding of English has improved so much since I started posting here.

CalifJim · Answer

ferdisAh, I see, because if you want to add whom to "I am a different man than I was back then." you end up with the same problem in "I am a different man than [the man whom] I was back then" and then 'that' should be used as you explained.

Yes.
_____

By the way, not directly related to the original question, it's who I was, not whom I was. was is a linking verb, so whom is not used.

I looked so different that no one knew who I was. (not whom I was.)

CJ

Ferdis · Answer

CalifJimBy the way, not directly related to the original question, it's who I was, not whom I was. was is a linking verb, so whom is not used.

I looked so different that no one knew who I was. (not whom I was.)

OK. I did this because I always change the word order to see which one to use. The man whom we went fishing with; we went fishing with him. The man who stole the money; he stole the money. So that gave me the faulty "whom I was; I was him." I understand that it should be "It was he" or "It is I" grammatically, but I thought everybody favoured 'him' or 'me' in those places. This can not be extrapolated to 'whom' then?

CalifJim · Answer

ferdisI understand that it should be "It was he" or "It is I" grammatically, but I thought everybody favoured 'him' or 'me' in those places. This can not be extrapolated to 'whom' then?

Your analysis is "right on the money"!!!

In the normal declarative order, it's typically "It's me", "It's us", etc., (unless we're trying to be extremely formal and use "It is I"), which leads us to think "It's 'whom'" is the underlying form of a question "Whom is it?" But in fact, especially in this linking-verb case, the 'rule' (if you can call it that) is that the objective forms (me, us, whom, ...) should be considered post-verbal forms, i.e., forms that come after the linking verb. Thus, although the underlying form is

It is whom?

(to match "It is me", etc.)

the fronting of the question word (the movement of the question word to the front of the sentence) places it before the verb.

*Whom is it?

Now that it is no longer after the verb, it's no longer 'post-verbal', so it has to be changed to the nominative form (subject form; pre-verbal form) who.

Who is it?

The same logic applies when forming embedded structures, because the pronoun whom is fronted in those cases as well and ends up in front of the verb in its own subordinate clause.

*The police did not know 'It was whom?' >
*The police did not know 'Whom it was?' >
The police did not know who it was.

*They didn't know 'He was whom?' >
*They didn't know 'Whom he was?' >
They didn't know who he was.

CJ

Ferdis · Answer

OK, I had to read this thrice, but I get it <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

Same man that I was

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