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Usenet Posted 23 years ago
Usage
"rr" in Spanish orthography
Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on the Web to show that the Spanish Academy had ever made a ruling to discontinue considering "rr" as a single letter of the Spanish alphabet.
Later on, I read the following quotation of the Spanish Academy in an AUE posting in the same thread:
Este solapamiento explica que, a diferencia de
la ch y la ll, la rr no se haya considerado nunca
una de las letras del alfabeto.
The word "nunca", meaning "never", stands out there, but my Spanish isn't good enough to be sure whether they're implying that it never is or never has been. I tend to think their intent is to say it never is, without excluding the possibility that it may have been at one time.
By the way, I didn't find "solapamiento" in various dictionaries, but I eventually deduced it probably means "overlapping." I think they were referring to the sound of "r" at the beginning of Spanish words, where it (sometimes?) has the same sound "rr" has in the middle. That is, the pronunciations of "r" and "rr" overlap in that case.
Later on, I read the following quotation of the Spanish Academy in an AUE posting in the same thread:
Este solapamiento explica que, a diferencia de
la ch y la ll, la rr no se haya considerado nunca
una de las letras del alfabeto.
The word "nunca", meaning "never", stands out there, but my Spanish isn't good enough to be sure whether they're implying that it never is or never has been. I tend to think their intent is to say it never is, without excluding the possibility that it may have been at one time.
By the way, I didn't find "solapamiento" in various dictionaries, but I eventually deduced it probably means "overlapping." I think they were referring to the sound of "r" at the beginning of Spanish words, where it (sometimes?) has the same sound "rr" has in the middle. That is, the pronunciations of "r" and "rr" overlap in that case.
Top answer
[nq:1]Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on the Web to show that the Spanish Academy had ever ... " Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up, so they are not claiming that "rr" has never been considered a separate letter, only that there is some disingenuous source doing so. Regards, John
- [nq:1]Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on the Web to show that the Spanish Academy had ever ...
- " Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up, so they are not claiming that "rr" has never been considered a separate letter, only that there is some disingenuous source doing so.
- Regards, John
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21 Answers
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[nq:1]Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on the Web to show that the Spanish Academy had ever ... diferencia de la ch y la ll, la rr no se haya considerado nunca una de las letras del alfabeto.[/nq]
No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered." Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up, so they are not claiming that "rr" has never been con
No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered." Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up, so they are not claiming that "rr" has never been con
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[nq:2]Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on ... se haya considerado nunca una de las letras del alfabeto.[/nq]
[nq:1]No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered." Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up, so they are not claiming that "rr" has never been considered a separate letter, only that there is some disingenuous source doing so.[/
[nq:1]No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered." Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up, so they are not claiming that "rr" has never been considered a separate letter, only that there is some disingenuous source doing so.[/
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[nq:2]Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on ... se haya considerado nunca una de las letras del alfabeto.[/nq]
[nq:1]No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered."[/nq]
The quote has "se haya," not "se hay." "Se hay" is present indicative; "se haya" is present subjunctive. (See the conjugation of "haber" at
.) Anyway, I would tentatively translate "ha
[nq:1]No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered."[/nq]
The quote has "se haya," not "se hay." "Se hay" is present indicative; "se haya" is present subjunctive. (See the conjugation of "haber" at
.) Anyway, I would tentatively translate "ha
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[nq:2]No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered." ... letter, only that there is some disingenuous source doing so.[/nq]
[nq:1]No, I got it wrong. I found the whole statement by googling, and "solapamiento" does seem to mean overlap in ... shows that in contrast to "ch" and "ll", "rr" has never been considered one of the letters of the alphabet.[/nq]
How sure are you tha
[nq:1]No, I got it wrong. I found the whole statement by googling, and "solapamiento" does seem to mean overlap in ... shows that in contrast to "ch" and "ll", "rr" has never been considered one of the letters of the alphabet.[/nq]
How sure are you tha
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Yes, good point. I would use "no se haya" in a sentence like "if you haven't read the book..." where there's some doubt: "si no se haya leido el libro". The phrase in question might mean something like "may never have been considered (by some)". I'll post the question over in alt.usage.spanish to see what response I get.
Regards,
John
Regards,
John
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[nq:1]How sure are you that "no se haya considerado nunca" means "has never been considered," and not "is never considered"?Very ... considered" translates into "nunca se considera" , and there is no reason as far as I can tell for doubt.[/nq]
Actually, it has never been considerated as a single letter, among other reasons because no single word begins with RR. btw, solapamiento does mean over
Actually, it has never been considerated as a single letter, among other reasons because no single word begins with RR. btw, solapamiento does mean over
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[nq:1]The quote has "se haya," not "se hay." "Se hay" is present indicative; "se haya" is present subjunctive. (See the conjugation of "haber" at http://spanish.about.com/library/verbs/blhaber.htm .)[/nq]
"se hay" does not exist at all, is completely wrong. haber has different translations into Eng
"se hay" does not exist at all, is completely wrong. haber has different translations into Eng
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[nq:2]Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on ... se haya considerado nunca una de las letras del alfabeto.[/nq]
[nq:1]No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered." Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up,[/nq]
I don't think you do RC. A deception or cover-up is a tapadera* (cf. the Spanish title of the Grisham novel/Tom Cruise movi
[nq:1]No se hay considerado nunca means "has never been considered." Solapamiento, IIRC means something like deception or cover-up,[/nq]
I don't think you do RC. A deception or cover-up is a tapadera* (cf. the Spanish title of the Grisham novel/Tom Cruise movi
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[nq:1]Yes, good point. I would use "no se haya" in a sentence like "if you haven't read the book..." where ... "may never have been considered (by some)". I'll post the question over in alt.usage.spanish to see what response I get.[/nq]
This subjunctive is forced by the syntax and has nothing to do with any semantic shades of possibility.
This subjunctive is forced by the syntax and has nothing to do with any semantic shades of possibility.
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[nq:1]Awhile ago, I commented that I hadn't found anything on the Web to show that the Spanish Academy had ever ... the same sound "rr" has in the middle. That is, the pronunciations of "r" and "rr" overlap in that case.[/nq]
Okay, thanks to another poster upthread I've now seen the full context for this:
Mientras que los dígrafos ch y ll son las
únicas grafías que representan, respect
Okay, thanks to another poster upthread I've now seen the full context for this:
Mientras que los dígrafos ch y ll son las
únicas grafías que representan, respect
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