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Forum_mail Posted 20 years ago
Grammar
Reported Speech Strikes Back - Episode I - Advanced Help Needed
While doing some reported/indirect speech stuff (again!) lots of questions has come to my mind. Here are some of them.
1/ 'I never eat meat', (Bill said/explained) -> turns into -> Bill said/explained (that) he never ate meat. - This is the normal way in which most of us would transform the sentence, isn't it?
BUT!
a) Is there a change of meaning between the direct and indirect form? To my liking, the second one, the transformed one, implies that Bill never ate meat before but nowdays maybe he likes it... My impression is, that after we transform the sentence, it somehow represents THE PAST, not the present or general truth. Thus... point b)
b) Thus, I guess, that it would be wiser to say "Bill said that he never EATS meat" because he probably doesn't eat meat to this day, it's a permanent truth, general one... but I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, that's why I'm asking. Is it possible ? Is it grammatically correct?
I guess it's pretty similar like in the following sentence : "Jack said he loves Mary" and the explanation taken from G. Leech A-Z Grammar says that he probably still loves her, it's like a general truth...
c) Is this sentence "Bill said he never ate meat" translated as : "Bill never eats meat" or "Bill never ate it (in the past!) ?
2/ A very similar problem emerges with 'I'm waiting for Ann' (said Jack). And, again, the normal way of transforming this sentence would be : "Jack said (that) he was waiting for Ann".
a) I'm wondering... Does this sentence imply that Jack was waiting for Ann some day in the past or does it imply that he was waiting for her "in the present" I don't know if you guys know what I mean... The thing is that I'd rather say something like "Jack said he is waiting for Ann" IF, is have to stress it, IF the situation still takes place in the present tense. BUT...
b) But if, for instance, on the next day, Bill, who is a friend of Jack, would report what Jack has told him, he would say "Jack said he was waiting for Ann". Am I right? If yes, why. If no, why?
3/ What's the difference between :
I would like to see it VS I should like to see it.
4/ According to Thomson & Martinet's Practical English Grammar the following sentece would have a different meaning if we change the tense from simple past to past perfect in reported speech :
I'm quoting form T&M :
He said, 'I loved her' must become "He said he had loved her" as otherwise there would be a change of meaning. But - He said, 'Ann arrived on Monday' could be reported "He said Ann arrived (<had> is optional here) on Monday"
This is presented in the point 309 "Past tenses sometimes remain unchanged"
a) I don't understand why there would be a change of meaning in the first sentence. Why do I HAVE to use past perfect? And why in the second one it's optional?
b) When past tenses remain past tenses without changing into past perfect? T&M gives examples but no explanmation :/
c) And, again, could we say "He said he loves her" instead of "He said he loved her" ? Why? Why not?
d) Does "He said he loved her" imply that he, possibly, doesn't love her anymore?
5/ Which ones are correct? And which ones are TOTALLY incorrect?
a) He says he knows her. VS
b) He said he knows her. VS
c) He said he knew her. VS
d) He says he knew her.
I guess that :
a) is ok, such a sentence may be heared when a person reads a letter from somebody outloud.
b) seems fine to me... implies that he knew her, he knows her and will know her...
c) ok? seems to imply that he used to know her but now he doesn't because maybe she's abroad or something...
d) correct? Again, a person reading a letter from somebody could say "Jack says/writes that he knew Jany... (bla bla bla... when they were at school, for instance) ?
6/ 'Who lives next door' ->
a) He asked who lived next door
VS
b) He asked who lives next door
Again, a) sounds to me like, somebody who lived next door doesn't live there anymore... But maybe I'm wrong...I don't know.
When I was younger, I used to have no problems with reported speech, I just adhered to the rules of tense shifts and things seemed to be ok. But nowdays after years of learning and studying English, I'm having lots of doubts...
Help me please :- )
PS. Let me know whether I did some mistakes or not in this post, it's essential to me, not just the reported speech, but other things too.
1/ 'I never eat meat', (Bill said/explained) -> turns into -> Bill said/explained (that) he never ate meat. - This is the normal way in which most of us would transform the sentence, isn't it?
BUT!
a) Is there a change of meaning between the direct and indirect form? To my liking, the second one, the transformed one, implies that Bill never ate meat before but nowdays maybe he likes it... My impression is, that after we transform the sentence, it somehow represents THE PAST, not the present or general truth. Thus... point b)
b) Thus, I guess, that it would be wiser to say "Bill said that he never EATS meat" because he probably doesn't eat meat to this day, it's a permanent truth, general one... but I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, that's why I'm asking. Is it possible ? Is it grammatically correct?
I guess it's pretty similar like in the following sentence : "Jack said he loves Mary" and the explanation taken from G. Leech A-Z Grammar says that he probably still loves her, it's like a general truth...
c) Is this sentence "Bill said he never ate meat" translated as : "Bill never eats meat" or "Bill never ate it (in the past!) ?
2/ A very similar problem emerges with 'I'm waiting for Ann' (said Jack). And, again, the normal way of transforming this sentence would be : "Jack said (that) he was waiting for Ann".
a) I'm wondering... Does this sentence imply that Jack was waiting for Ann some day in the past or does it imply that he was waiting for her "in the present" I don't know if you guys know what I mean... The thing is that I'd rather say something like "Jack said he is waiting for Ann" IF, is have to stress it, IF the situation still takes place in the present tense. BUT...
b) But if, for instance, on the next day, Bill, who is a friend of Jack, would report what Jack has told him, he would say "Jack said he was waiting for Ann". Am I right? If yes, why. If no, why?
3/ What's the difference between :
I would like to see it VS I should like to see it.
4/ According to Thomson & Martinet's Practical English Grammar the following sentece would have a different meaning if we change the tense from simple past to past perfect in reported speech :
I'm quoting form T&M :
He said, 'I loved her' must become "He said he had loved her" as otherwise there would be a change of meaning. But - He said, 'Ann arrived on Monday' could be reported "He said Ann arrived (<had> is optional here) on Monday"
This is presented in the point 309 "Past tenses sometimes remain unchanged"
a) I don't understand why there would be a change of meaning in the first sentence. Why do I HAVE to use past perfect? And why in the second one it's optional?
b) When past tenses remain past tenses without changing into past perfect? T&M gives examples but no explanmation :/
c) And, again, could we say "He said he loves her" instead of "He said he loved her" ? Why? Why not?
d) Does "He said he loved her" imply that he, possibly, doesn't love her anymore?
5/ Which ones are correct? And which ones are TOTALLY incorrect?
a) He says he knows her. VS
b) He said he knows her. VS
c) He said he knew her. VS
d) He says he knew her.
I guess that :
a) is ok, such a sentence may be heared when a person reads a letter from somebody outloud.
b) seems fine to me... implies that he knew her, he knows her and will know her...
c) ok? seems to imply that he used to know her but now he doesn't because maybe she's abroad or something...
d) correct? Again, a person reading a letter from somebody could say "Jack says/writes that he knew Jany... (bla bla bla... when they were at school, for instance) ?
6/ 'Who lives next door' ->
a) He asked who lived next door
VS
b) He asked who lives next door
Again, a) sounds to me like, somebody who lived next door doesn't live there anymore... But maybe I'm wrong...I don't know.
When I was younger, I used to have no problems with reported speech, I just adhered to the rules of tense shifts and things seemed to be ok. But nowdays after years of learning and studying English, I'm having lots of doubts...
Help me please :- )
PS. Let me know whether I did some mistakes or not in this post, it's essential to me, not just the reported speech, but other things too.
Top answer
«"Bill said that he never EATS meat" because he probably doesn't eat meat to this day, it's a permanent truth, general one... but I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, that's why I'm asking. Is it possible ?
- «"Bill said that he never EATS meat" because he probably doesn't eat meat to this day, it's a permanent truth, general one...
- but I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, that's why I'm asking.
- Is it possible ?
- » Yes, it's ok if it pretends to be still actual...
- » It means that Bill said: «I never eat meat».
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14 Answers
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«"Bill said that he never EATS meat" because he probably doesn't eat meat to this day, it's a permanent truth, general one... but I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, that's why I'm asking. Is it possible ? Is it grammatically correct?»
Yes, it's ok if it pretends to be still actual...
«c)Is this sentence "Bill said he never ate meat" translated as : "Bill never eats meat" o
Yes, it's ok if it pretends to be still actual...
«c)Is this sentence "Bill said he never ate meat" translated as : "Bill never eats meat" o
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Wrt 1, both your versions are IMO correct, but see here:
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Indirect speech: reporting present and future tenses
If somebody talked about a situation which has still not changed - that is to say, if the original speaker's present and future are still present and future - a reporter can choose whether to keep the original speaker's tenses or change them. Bo
-----------
Indirect speech: reporting present and future tenses
If somebody talked about a situation which has still not changed - that is to say, if the original speaker's present and future are still present and future - a reporter can choose whether to keep the original speaker's tenses or change them. Bo
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I would much appreciate if a native speaker of English (like Grammar Geek 
where are you ?) said a few words about this stuff...
where are you ?) said a few words about this stuff...00
I'm not English but I would say that:
a) B doesn't love A anymore. It's a past action which A is telling to another person, (let's say C).
b) B doesn't love A but B told A that he had loved him in the past. It's an action which is previous to that moment (when B talks to A) and now A is telling to someone else.
c) A loves B. This is an "habitual" action in the present, i
a) B doesn't love A anymore. It's a past action which A is telling to another person, (let's say C).
b) B doesn't love A but B told A that he had loved him in the past. It's an action which is previous to that moment (when B talks to A) and now A is telling to someone else.
c) A loves B. This is an "habitual" action in the present, i
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«I would much appreciate if a native speaker of English (like Grammar Geek where are you ?) said a few words about this stuff...»
Mr. Swan is a native speaker... By the way, you are recommended to buy his book, or to download it.
«d) I've been loving her all my life.»
It seems, that «I have loved her all my life» is much better. Anyway, it's a strange sentence: to have love
Mr. Swan is a native speaker... By the way, you are recommended to buy his book, or to download it.
«d) I've been loving her all my life.»
It seems, that «I have loved her all my life» is much better. Anyway, it's a strange sentence: to have love
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Hi - Here I am. I've been busy at work and watching my daughter play softball and going to choir practice and mourning the Pistons' performance and... anyway, here I am.
He said he loved me: This could be either that he does still love me or that he once loved me. Only the circumstances and context would tell you which he means. You get back from a date with your boyfriend, your b
He said he loved me: This could be either that he does still love me or that he once loved me. Only the circumstances and context would tell you which he means. You get back from a date with your boyfriend, your b
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Yes, Forum_mail, make shorter posts
And get Otto Jespersen's grammar, if you can (difficult, out
And get Otto Jespersen's grammar, if you can (difficult, out
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Many thanks to all of you, especially to GG for his very clear explanation!
Grammar Geek, could you do me a favour? I'd much appreciate if you could take a look at these questions and answer (at least) some of them, at you convenience... :
2/ A very similar problem emerges with 'I'm waiting for Ann' (said Jack). And, again, the normal way of transforming this sentence wo
Grammar Geek, could you do me a favour? I'd much appreciate if you could take a look at these questions and answer (at least) some of them, at you convenience... :
2/ A very similar problem emerges with 'I'm waiting for Ann' (said Jack). And, again, the normal way of transforming this sentence wo
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Let's do this in pieces:
2/ A very similar problem emerges with 'I'm waiting for Ann' (said Jack). And, again, the normal way of transforming this sentence would be : "Jack said (that) he was waiting for Ann".
a) I'm wondering... Does this sentence imply that Jack was waiting for Ann some day in the past or does it imply that he was waiting for her "in the present" I d
2/ A very similar problem emerges with 'I'm waiting for Ann' (said Jack). And, again, the normal way of transforming this sentence would be : "Jack said (that) he was waiting for Ann".
a) I'm wondering... Does this sentence imply that Jack was waiting for Ann some day in the past or does it imply that he was waiting for her "in the present" I d
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3/ What's the difference between :
I would like to see it VS I should like to see it.
In American English, you do not use "I should" to mean "I would like to," which translates roughly into "Please, may I see it." I'm sure you can construct a situation in which you'd say "I should like to see it" - but you'd have
I would like to see it VS I should like to see it.
In American English, you do not use "I should" to mean "I would like to," which translates roughly into "Please, may I see it." I'm sure you can construct a situation in which you'd say "I should like to see it" - but you'd have
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