Reported speech

Question

1) She said: 'he is looking at me as if I were a Martian'
2) They said: 'he is runnig as if he was exhausted'
Please help me to report these ones.

3) If (1) is correct:
If I complete it to :
'he is looking at me as [he would look at me]if [it were true that] I was a Martian'

According to (3) it must be 'was' since it's sunordinate clause of the sentence. In (1) the meaning is the same but if I remove the brackets the form of 'was' would change to 'were'.

How come?

Just the truth · Accepted Answer

1) She said: 'he is looking at me as if I were a Martian'
2) They said: 'he is runnig as if he was exhausted'
Please help me to report these ones.

1) She said that he was looking at her as if she were a Martian'

2) They said that he was runniNg as if he was exhausted.

MrPedantic · Answer

Hello Mav

1. 'he is looking at me as [he would look at me]if [it were true that] I was a Martian'.

I misled you grievously in the As If thread, by suggesting you insert [it were true that] to make the sense clearer.

As you pointed out in a later post, this would make any 'as if' clause revert to the indicative.

So please ignore that suggestion! (I'd already adjusted the As If thread to take your comment into account.)

Sorry about the confusion.

MrP

Maverick88 · Answer

Hi MrP

I if I add 'if it were true that' it makes an oppisite sense to the sense made by subjunctive right? 'If it were true that', also, cannot be inserted into a sentence just to explain it and as you said makes it indicative. So here is what I think:

#1 'He is looking at me as if I were a Martian'
This sentence actually implies that the statement is unreal, hupotheritcal or at least uncertain.

#2 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it were true that I was a Martian'
The sentence is the same as #1 but just its indicative form and more emphasis is put on the uncertainty (by the 'if it were tru that').

#3 'He is looking at me as if I was a Martian'
This one seems to me ungrammatical (considering the senses of 'was' and 'were' concerning the odd of reality) because 'was' makes sense of reality, sense that the statement that 'I' am a Martian is real when it's actually impossible. #2 and #1 seems to be grammatical, aren't they? But #1 is more natural I suppose.

Those small sentenses were my thoughts and understanding about the topic from what I was explained here by you. Just tell me if my understanding is right or how much right, pelase.

Thank you.

Maverick88 · Answer

Hi JTT and MrP

JTT wrote:

1) She said: 'he is looking at me as if I were a Martian'
2) They said: 'he is runnig as if he was exhausted'

Reported speech:
1) She said that he was looking at her as if she were a Martian'
2) They said that he was runniNg as if he was exhausted.

Let's refer to (1). The main verb 'looking' was reported into 'was looking' and the 'were' after 'as if' isn't. Why??? Isn't it reported speech anyway?

The same goes for 'was (exhausted)' in (2).

Thanks

MrPedantic · Answer

Hello Mav

if + subjunctive

#1 'He is looking at me as if I were a Martian.'
That's right: hypothetical.

#2 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it were true that I was a Martian.'
This sentence is hypothetical too.

The difference is that in #1, the hypothesis resides in subjunctive 'if I were'; but in #2, the hypothesis resides in the subjunctive 'if it were true'.

This is why we can't simply excise [it were true that]. 'I was a Martian' is in the indicative because it's subordinate to a subjunctive: but once that subjunctive disappears, 'I was a Martian' can be changed into 'I were a Martian'.

if + indicative-for-subjunctive

#3 'He is looking at me as if I was a Martian'
This is a case of 'indicative-for-subjunctive'. Some people use 'was' even in clearly hypothetical statements: 'I wouldn't do that, if I was you', etc.

Such speakers might also change the subjunctive in #2 to a 'was':

#4 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it was true that I was a Martian'

There is quite a lot of debate about this. Some people would think that #3 and #4 were ungrammatical; some people would think they were fine.

Personally, I prefer to use the subjunctive for hypothetical cases, since 'if + indicative' is useful for non-hypothetical statements:

#5 'If that was MrP we just saw, this must be EnglishForward.' (real inference – indicative 'was')

#6 'If I were MrP, I'd get another job.' (hypothesis – subjunctive 'were')

MrP

Maverick88 · Answer

Hi MrP,

Thanks for enriching my knowledge

I've got a question left concerning reporting which was asked after JTT's post. So if you see it before JTT and have some time for it please answer me. I am sure you both can help me

P.S. I am sorry for my lack of patience...

Just the truth · Answer

JTT wrote:
1) She said: 'he is looking at me as if I were a Martian'
2) They said: 'he is running as if he was exhausted'

Reported speech:
1) She said that he was looking at her as if she were a Martian'
2) They said that he was runniNg as if he was exhausted.

Let's refer to (1). The main verb 'looking' was reported into 'was looking' and the 'were' after 'as if' isn't. Why??? Isn't it reported speech anyway?

The same goes for 'was (exhausted)' in (2).

+++++++++++++++++++

JTT: First and foremost, Maverick, you must understand that this backshifting, as it's called, is NOT done to denote a past time/a past tense. It is simply a past tense FORM that is used to mark it as indirect reported speech, ie. not a direct or exact quote.

Since we most often report on things as they are, or as they are expected to be, to be accurate we describe the present state.

Sports Announcer: He is running as if he was exhausted.

2nd announcer: He is, isn't he!

Reporter [on cell phone to his editor]: They said he is/was running as if he was/is exhausted.

The past tense FORM you see used in reported speech COULD be reflective of a true past tense situation but as often as not, it MUST be glossed/understood as being reflective of now, the present situation. The context {something that is always missing in simplistic grammar books} would let us know exactly what the situation is.

We don't normally backshift states even if and when the situation is truly past. Remember, backshifting is, many times completely optional. ENLs follow these conventions to best effect meaning.

Maverick: I don't want to go to Disneyland.

JTT: {to Pieanne} He said that he didn't want to go to Disneyland.

Pieanne: Why? It'll be fun.

Pieanne doesn't make the mental error thinking that the "didn't" means that Mav didn't want to go. She sensibly knows that this means "he doesn't want to go".

Just the truth · Answer

if + subjunctive

#1 'He is looking at me as if I were a Martian.'
That's right: hypothetical.

JTT: #1a. 'He is looking at me as if I was a Martian.'

This too is hypothetical and it expresses the identical counterfactual situation that #1 does.

=

#2 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it were true that I was a Martian.'
This sentence is hypothetical too.

The difference is that in #1, the hypothesis resides in subjunctive 'if I were'; but in #2, the hypothesis resides in the subjunctive 'if it were true'.

This is why we can't simply excise [it were true that]. 'I was a Martian' is in the indicative because it's subordinate to a subjunctive: but once that subjunctive disappears, 'I was a Martian' can be changed into 'I were a Martian'.

JTT: The operative word here is "can". Of course, "was" can be left in and the meaning is identical.

===

if + indicative-for-subjunctive

#3 'He is looking at me as if I was a Martian'
This is a case of 'indicative-for-subjunctive'. Some people use 'was' even in clearly hypothetical statements: 'I wouldn't do that, if I was you', etc.

Such speakers might also change the subjunctive in #2 to a 'was':

#4 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it was true that I was a Martian'

There is quite a lot of debate about this. Some people would think that #3 and #4 were ungrammatical; some people would think they were fine.

Personally, I prefer to use the subjunctive for hypothetical cases, since 'if + indicative' is useful for non-hypothetical statements:

#5 'If that was MrP we just saw, this must be EnglishForward.' (real inference – indicative 'was')

#6 'If I were MrP, I'd get another job.' (hypothesis – subjunctive 'were')

JTT:
#2a. 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it was true that I was a Martian.'

This sentence is hypothetical too and fully counterfactual. An indicative FORM cannot change the meaning. That would be impossible. The people who think these sentences are ungrammatical are WRONG. They are fully grammatical.

People's individual preferences do not stand as the measure of the rules of English. The rules of English are driven by meaning. This dismal red herring has been the only "proof" offered by PGs and it is no proof at all.

Context lets us know whether the meaning of indicative is an inference or a counterfactual just as context would let us know whether, "If they/you were ..." was an indicative or a counterfactual.

MrPedantic · Answer

To sum up those examples:

if + subjunctive (hypothetical)

#1 'He is looking at me as if I were a Martian.'
#2 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it were true that I was a Martian.'
#6 'If I were MrP, I'd get another job.'

if + indicative-for-subjunctive (hypothetical)

#3 'He is looking at me as if I was a Martian'
#4 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it was true that I was a Martian'

Additions by JT:

#1a. 'He is looking at me as if I was a Martian.' (= #3)
#2a. 'He is looking at me as he would look at me if it was true that I was a Martian.' (= #4)

if + indicative (real inference)

#5 'If that was MrP we just saw, this must be EnglishForward.'

MrP

Maverick88 · Answer

Thank you, MrP
Thank you, JTT

We don't normally backshift states even if and when the situation is truly past. Remember, backshifting is, many times completely optional

So it's normal to report it like this? Optionally?
A:'I don't want you to think of me as if I were an idiot
#1 B: A said he didn't want us to think of him as if he had been an idiot
#2 B: A said he didn't want us to think of him as if he were an idiot
(The point is that A was ellegedly considered an idiot at the moment of talking)

Is #1 possible?
#2 seems correct if it were to report 'I don't want you to think of me as if I am an idiot'
But this sentence is ungrammatical by my teacher. Actually 'he was talking as if he WERE\WAS' too. According to what I understood from her backshifting is always necessary in using 'as if'...

Reported speech

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