Relative vs. Demonstrative pronouns

Question

When is it correct to use the relative pronoun and when should the demonstrative pronoun be used?
For example, is it correct to say, "I read the book WHICH you gave me," or "I read the book THAT you gave me."
Thanks for your help.
Mark

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[nq:1]When is it correct to use the relative pronoun and when should the demonstrative pronoun be used? For example, is it correct to say, "I read the book WHICH you gave me," or "I read the book THAT you gave me."[/nq]
I am sure others will reply with more specific explanations, and I will learn from their replies. However, I need to clear up just one problem here:
"that", as you have used it in your second example, is not a demonstrative pronoun.
When "that" is demonstrative, you should be able to mentally picture a finger pointing to a particular item or person or hear a stress on the "that".
"I want to do this puzzle, not that". "When choosing between this way or that, I decide by flipping a coin." "Ice cream for lunch? That's for me."

As to which of the two examples I would use, well, I would use "that" as the relative pronoun, and save "which" for a situation involving choice, a situation that doesn't appear in your examples. ( But, as I say, others may give you a better explanation. I am not a teacher of English usage and grammar.)

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[nq:1]When is it correct to use the relative pronoun and when should the demonstrative pronoun be used? For example, is it correct to say, "I read the book WHICH you gave me," or "I read the book THAT you gave me."[/nq]
Both.
[nq:1]Thanks for your help. Mark[/nq]
s/ meirman
Posting from alt.english.usage

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[nq:1]When is it correct to use the relative pronoun and when should the demonstrative pronoun be used?[/nq]
As Pat has pointed out, you're making a false distinction; it's how they're used that determines what kind of pronouns "that" and "which" are. Your example below has a relative pronoun introducing a relative clause regardless of which word you choose. (Notice that I just used "which" as a demonstrative.)
[nq:1]For example, is it correct to say, "I read the book WHICH you gave me," or "I read the book THAT you gave me."[/nq]
Meirman gave you the short answer; although I would recommend "that", "which" is also acceptable. The question has some potential complications, though, which I hope to explain a bit.

The relative pronoun introducing a *non-defining* clause is "which". In the original example, if the context has already introduced "the book" (or if it will be further described immediately afterward), it may be that "you gave me" is unnecessary to identify it, in which case the speaker is just providing additional information. Beside always using "which", this non-defining usage is marked by a preceding comma. For example: "I didn't see David Lynch's film Dune . I read the book, which you gave me." Here "the book" would be identifiable as (Frank Herbert's) Dune even without the relative clause, so "you gave me" is non-defining. You couldn't introduce the clause with "that".
In your example as it stands, though, "you gave me" would normally be taken to be a defining clause, mainly because there's no comma before the pronoun. So here the clause serves to identify the book being discussed. (It would be more clearly defining if the indefinite article had been used "a book" but "the" allows for the possibility of a context such as that of my Dune example. One would still have to assume the lack of a comma to be an accident.) In this case many authorities prefer "that" (as do I) but most speakers consider "which" acceptable, and some find it the more natural choice.

If the speaker had received more than one book from the donor, "that you gave me" would be insufficient to distinguish it from the other(s). In this case a non-defining clause (introduced by ", which") would be called for, with the identification being made clear elsewhere one hopes.

Odysseus

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]When is it correct to use the relative pronoun and when should the demonstrative pronoun be used? For example, is it correct to say, "I read the book WHICH you gave me," or "I read the book THAT you gave me." Thanks for your help.[/nq]
'Which' informs, 'that' defines.
You really need a comma with 'which', which will help make it clearer: "I read the book, which you gave me." That means there is but one book (that is, there is but one book in question.) 'Which' conveys the
additional information that someone gave it to you.

"I read the book that you gave me" means there are other books (perhaps that others gave you), but you read the book that someone gave you. It defines the particular book.

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[nq:2]When is it correct to use the relative pronoun and ... the book THAT you gave me." Thanks for your help.[/nq]
[nq:1]'Which' informs, 'that' defines. You really need a comma with 'which', which will help make it clearer: "I read the ... books (perhaps that others gave you), but you read the book that someone gave you. It defines the particular book.[/nq]
"I read the book, which you gave me." is illiteracy by over-punctuation unless you are somewhere very odd.
(To the OP): Either "that" or "which" are fine.

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[nq:2]'Which' informs, 'that' defines. You really need a comma with ... book that someone gave you. It defines the particular book.[/nq]
[nq:1]"I read the book, which you gave me." is illiteracy by over-punctuation unless you are somewhere very odd. (To the OP): Either "that" or "which" are fine.[/nq]
Quite right: Rudy's analysis is incomplete, and here inappropriate. It echoes what Henry Fowler said (interestingly but pointlessly) would be a useful convention if it could be established, but leaves out Fowler's comment to the effect that it certainly wasn't established, and his apparent implication that one couldn't reasonably expect it to become so.
Burchfield's "Fowler" has a pretty detailed discussion under that (relative pronoun) , but I haven't tried to plough through it. Note to Thebakist: in these cases "that" is a relative pronoun, not demonstrative.
(Warning: difficulty follows.) An example of demonstrative "that" in a sentence a bit like these would be "I read the book: that was hard" (i.e., I found it difficult to read the book). An example of non-restrictive "which" would be "I read the book, which was hard" (i.e., again, I found it difficult to read the book). These are two ways of describing the same things, but with a different emphasis: note that the punctuation difference is essential, though my first example's colon might be replaced with a full stop. We wouldn't use "that" in my second example; and "which" would be informal in the first so informal that I think an examiner would have to mark it wrong.

Mike.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]'Which' informs, 'that' defines. You really need a comma with ... book that someone gave you. It defines the particular book.[/nq]
[nq:1]"I read the book, which you gave me." is illiteracy by over-punctuation unless you are somewhere very odd. (To the OP): Either "that" or "which" are fine.[/nq]
'Which' and 'that' are not synonyms. That's the reason the question keeps recurring.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]'Which' and 'that' are not synonyms. That's the reason the question keeps recurring.[/nq]
Or should that be:
'Which' and 'that' are not synonyms. Which's the reason the question keeps recurring.
Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]'Which' and 'that' are not synonyms. That's the reason the question keeps recurring.[/nq]
[nq:1]Or should that be: 'Which' and 'that' are not synonyms. Which's the reason the question keeps recurring. Sorry. Couldn't resist.[/nq]
I'm glad you didn't!

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"I read the book, which you gave me." is illiteracy ... odd. (To the OP): Either "that" or "which" are fine.[/nq]
[nq:1]'Which' and 'that' are not synonyms. That's the reason the question keeps recurring.[/nq]
You are right, but you are also wrong. "Which" and "that" are not exact synonyms, but their semantic areas overlap. Simply put, "which" can be used as the restrictive relative in place of that." "This is the car which I chose" {note the absence of any comma) means the same as "This is the care that I chose." As Mike Lyle quite correctly pointed out, H.W. Fowler recommended the use of "that" as sole restrictive relative pronoun (other than "who" where "who" is correct) and "which" as a non-restrictive relative. Many people have followed his recommendation, but not enough to render "which" incorrect when used restrictively.
But why should you believe me? Try these instead:

http://www.bartleby.com/68/91/5991.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/W0117400.html (PRONOUN def. 2c)

http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/062.html#THAT (expecially the third paragraph)
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxthatvs.html

Life would be tidier if Rudy Canoza were right, but he isn't. There is nothing wrong with the use of "which" as a restrictive relative. (I could add a few more cites to the four above, all of which support my conclusion. The bakist is right. Rudy Canoza is wrong.

Bob Lieblich
There's no law against looking things up before bloviating

Relative vs. Demonstrative pronouns

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