Relative pronouns

Question

Hello...How about these kind of relative pronouns?(1) She made him a doctor.   ? a doctor that she made him.(2) He called her a Cinderella.    ? a Cinderella that he called her.(3) They consider it a good investment. ? A good investment that they consider it.All three unacceptable to native’s ears?

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

pructusAll three unacceptable to native’s ears?

The first parts of all of them are fine English; the second parts are not possible structures.

Pructus · Answer

I see... I see..

Thanks for the confirmation, Mister Micawber!!

Anonymous · Answer

If you want to use relative pronouns here, you've got to use cleft sentences:

She made him a doctor => It was she who made him a doctor or It was her who made him a doctor
He called her a Cinderella => It was he who called her Cinderella or It was him who called her Cinderella
They consider it a good investment => It is they who consider it a good investment or It is them who consider it a good investment

Pructus · Answer

Thanks Anonymous!!
Your response gave me a hint to another perspective.
How about these?

She made him a doctor => It was a doctor that she made him
He called her a Cinderella => It was a Cinderella that he called her.
They consider it a good investment => It is a good investment that they consider it.

Khoff · Answer

Somehow these are slightly better than the first set, but still unacceptable. <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/8.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/8.gif' alt='Emotion: indifferent'/>

CalifJim · Answer

pructusShe made him a doctor.

This is a catenative structure of the causative type. She 'caused' him to become a doctor. (It doesn't say how, of course.)

Do not confuse this with the double object benefactive structure: She made him a sweater.

Two different structures:
She made a sweater for him, but she didn't make a doctor for him.
She caused him to become a doctor, but she didn't cause him to become a sweater.

pructusHe called her a Cinderella. They consider it a good investment.

In this double object structure the second object predicates something of the first. For this reason, the second object is also called an object complement. This is not the same kind of structure as either of the two structures referenced above.

pructusAll three unacceptable to native’s ears?

The originals are, but your paraphrases as relative clauses are not. What launched you on the project of relativizing these items? Not every noun phrase in every sentence can be successfully relativized, you know!

(1) She made him a doctor. ? the doctor that she made him. This one is only possible with 'the'. It can't be 'a' because she can't have caused him to become several doctors, only one of which you wish to refer to — at least not in practical terms. Even with 'the' it's awkward to relativize 'doctor'. The non-restrictive ... a doctor, which she made him ... is just barely possible, but just as awkward.
________________

(2) He called her a Cinderella. ? a Cinderella that he called her. No. This makes no sense.
(3) They consider it a good investment. ? A good investment that they consider it. No. This makes no sense.
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These non-restrictive clauses are possible, but I'm not sure they are what you're looking for:

... a Cinderella, which was what he called her, ...
... a good investment, which is what they consider it, ...

This is also possible for the first example, though it verges on the undecipherable:

... a doctor, which is what she made him, ...

CJ

Pructus · Answer

Thanks khoff~

And thanks to CJ and Mister Micawber, too!!

Pructus · Answer

Oh, CJ, I just looked at this...

Thanks so much for the explanations!!

And this part is impressive....

CalifJim... a Cinderella, which was what he called her, ...
... a good investment, which is what they consider it, ...

Then, I am thinking like this...

a. The doctor that she made him. ----> possible.
b. The Cinderella that he called her. ----> ?
c. The good investment that they consider it. ---- impossible.
*********
Am I correct?

Then, I find this kind of structure...
How about this: The nickname that they named him.

CalifJim · Answer

pructusThen, I am thinking like this...a. The doctor that she made him. ----> possible.b. The Cinderella that he called her. ----> ?c. The good investment that they consider it. ---- impossible.*********Am I correct?

You are writing all of them with capital letters at the beginning and a period at the end, as if they were complete sentences. They're not. They are just phrases. They must occur within a larger sentence. (Maybe you already know that.)

a. is only barely possible.
b. is impossible.
c. is impossible, as you say.

pructusThe nickname that they named him.

It sounds strange to me. It should be 'the nickname that they gave him' because it comes from They gave him that nickname.

CJ

Pructus · Answer

Thanks so much, CJ!!

CalifJimYou are writing all of them with capital letters at the beginning and a period at the end, as if they were complete sentences. They're not. They are just phrases. They must occur within a larger sentence. (Maybe you already know that.)

Yes, I agree...
I knew it, and I usually try not to make that mistake, but this time, it just happened.
Thanks for reminding...
As a non-native of English, what I know in the head doesn't always come out in speaking or writing.

CalifJimIt sounds strange to me. It should be 'the nickname that they gave him' because it comes from They gave him that nickname.

I see....
With your help, now I seem to have got the grasp of this type of relativizations...
But, still a little unclear is....
I am wondering how about, "the name they named him"?
I feel this is not so ungrammatical...

Relative pronouns

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