Relative pronouns

Question

Is there any difference between these two sentences accroding to which i should use the relative pronouns given here (These answers are taken from the ready-made exercise)? As for me they are similar and I would use that in both of them cause we can order books via the Internet or from a shop and here I denote what exactly books i am talking about.

1. The books, which I'd ordered over the internet, took nearly three weeks to arrive.

2. The books that I'd ordered from a bookshop arrived the following week.

Frostwhite · Accepted Answer

Hi!

Please consider this.
Hope it helps.

When do you use that and which?

In current usage, that refers to persons or things and which is used chiefly for things. The standard rule says that one uses that only to introduce a restrictive or defining relative clause - one that identifies the person or thing being talked about. An example is "The fort that Keir built has to be taken down" and the clause "that Keir built" describes which fort has to be taken down, i.e. it is restrictive. In contrast, which is used only with nonrestrictive or non-defining clauses. This type of clause gives additional information about something that has already been identified in the context. An example is "The students have been complaining about the assigned novel, which is hard to understand." The clause "which is hard to understand" is nonrestrictive as it does not indicate the specific novel being complained about. In a sentence including a nonrestrictive clause, the sentence would still be clear even if the clause were omitted. One will find that which sounds more natural than that in such a sentence, which is a great double-check of the grammar. Some people very strictly use that only in restrictive clauses and which in nonrestrictive clauses. However, even in good prose one will find the use of which in restrictive clauses is very common and considered grammatically acceptable. An example is "I would like to find a website which will tell me all about writing a research paper."

(This excerpt was from dictionary.com. I just can't remember the exact date it was provided.)

Olgaa · Answer

Thank you but I've read a lot of grammar sources concerning this topic  and I'm interested in the type of exactly these sentences. These sentences are given without any additional information in the exercise therefore how can I define that the fist sentence is non-defining (according to the answers) if I really understand that in a real life i can order books some other way and in this case i want to emphasize that only those books ordered on the Internet took so much time.  In the second example the sentence is defining according to the answers. But what's the difference between them? To my mind they are quite similar.

CalifJim · Answer

Olgaa1. The books, which I'd ordered over the internet, took nearly three weeks to arrive.
2. The books that I'd ordered from a bookshop arrived the following week.

I don't know where you're getting this, but it's incomplete as it stands, and not very good examples, in my opinion.

The non-defining (that is, parenthetical) clauses can take only which.
The defining clauses can take both which and that.
_______

As long as you use commas and which, you are indicating to the reader that you consider the information between commas parenthetical.

The books, which I'd ordered over the internet, took nearly three weeks to arrive.
=
The books (that is, the books we have just been talking about) took nearly three weeks to arrive. Oh, and by the way, I'd ordered them over the internet.

The books, which I'd ordered from a bookshop, arrived the following week.
=
The books (that is, the books we have just been talking about) arrived the following week. Oh, and by the way, I'd ordered them from a bookshop.
________

This non-defining clause can also refer to the whole idea expressed by the sentence that precedes:

Paula forgot to lock the door when she left the house this morning, which is very unlike her.

_______________

Without commas, and using either that or which, you are indicating to the reader that you consider the relative clause important information for specifying the books in question.

The books [that / which] I'd ordered over the internet took nearly three weeks to arrive.
=
Those books (the ones I'd ordered over the internet and I'm not referring to any others) took nearly three weeks to arrive.

The books [that / which] I'd ordered from a bookshop arrived the following week.
=
Those books (the ones I'd ordered from a bookshop and I'm not referring to any others) arrived the following week.
__________________

Here's another example. Here the use of the comma changes the meaning:

Although he was deaf, Beethoven wrote many beautiful symphonies which astonished everyone.
Defining clause. The symphonies astonished everyone. Here you can substitute that for which.

Although he was deaf, Beethoven wrote many beautiful symphonies, which astonished everyone.
Non-defining clause. The fact that Beethoven, even though deaf, could write beautiful symphonies astonished everyone. Here you cannot substitute that for which.

CJ

BillJ · Answer

OlgaaIs there any difference between these two sentences accroding to which i should use the relative pronouns given here (These answers are taken from the ready-made exercise)? As for me they are similar and I would use that in both of them cause we can order books via the Internet or from a shop and here I denote what exactly books i am talking about.
1. The books, which I'd ordered over the internet, took nearly three weeks to arrive.
2. The books that I'd ordered from a bookshop arrived the following week.

Hello Olgaa

They seem similar, but in fact they have different interpretations:

1. Is a non-restrictive (or non-defining) relative clause. It is easily recognisable because it's marked off by commas (sometimes brackets or dashes are used). Non-restrictive relatives provide additional, though not essential, information about the nouns they modify. So here, the fact that you placed the order over the Internet is supplementary, not essential, information about the 'books'. The important message is that 'some books took nearly three weeks to arrive'. Non-restrictive relatives are almost always of the wh type ('who', 'which' etc), so you can't use 'that'.

2. Is a restrictive (or defining) relative clause. Commas are not used to mark off restrictive relative clauses because they are an integral part of the overall sentence; they provide essential information - it is only the books that you ordered from a bookshop that arrived the following week. Other books that you may have ordered by some other means may have arrived more or less quickly. Restrictive relatives also use wh pronouns, but unlike non-restrictives, they can also use 'that'.

(Incidentally, you could if you wish make 1. restrictive by simply removing the commas. The meaning would then be that only those books that you ordered over the Internet (and no others) took nearly three weeks to arrive).

BillJ

ps Sorry CJ - didn't mean to cut across you. I was so slow typing my reply, that you got in first! I think we've esentially said the same things.

CalifJim · Answer

BillJSorry CJ

Apologies are not necessary. This sort of thing happens to all of us quite often. And anyway, learners are better served by seeing a variety of approaches in replying to their questions.

CJ

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