Relative pronoun 'where' and/or 'that'

Question

Dear teachers,Today in my writing class, one of my students asked me why 'that' could not be used instead of 'where' in the following sentence. I could not give an answer. Can somebody please help. Thank you."His friend said he should think about  the financial aspects, so he suggested finding an inexpensive college where my brother could also get a scholarship.

BillJ · Accepted Answer

Hi Alexsin

You can use "that", but you have to use a locative preposition with it:

"His friend said he should think about the financial aspects, so he suggested finding an inexpensive college that my brother could also get a scholarship at.

If we gap the relative clause, it becomes "An inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at __________, where the gap is represented by the antecedent "an inexpensive college".

BillJ

Fivejedjon · Answer

BillJYou can use "that", but you have to use a locative preposition with it:"His friend said he should think about the financial aspects, so he suggested finding an inexpensive college that my brother could also get a scholarship at.

I agree.

BillJThe relative clause (bracketed) then becomes "An inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college].

I don't agree. The relative clause is, in my opinion, : that my brother could also get a scholarship at.

BillJ · Answer

fivejedjonBillJThe relative clause (bracketed) then becomes "An inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college].I don't agree. The relative clause is, in my opinion, : that my brother could also get a scholarship at.

I gapped it, with the gap being understood as "an inexpensive college". There's nothing at all wrong with that.

BillJ

Fivejedjon · Answer

BillJfivejedjonBillJThe relative clause (bracketed) then becomes "An inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college].I don't agree. The relative clause is, in my opinion, : that my brother could also get a scholarship at.
BillJAn inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college]

Sorry, but I don't understand. What do you mean by 'gapped'? It appears to me that you said that the relative clause was [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college].

BillJ · Answer

fivejedjonBillJfivejedjonBillJThe relative clause (bracketed) then becomes "An inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college].I don't agree. The relative clause is, in my opinion, : that my brother could also get a scholarship at.BillJAn inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college] Sorry, but I don't understand. What do you mean by 'gapped'? It appears to me that you said that the relative clause was [that my brother could also get a scholarship at an inexpensive college].

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Here it is again: "... an inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at ________],

The 'gap' notation, a blank underscore, represents (in this case) the missing complement of the stranded prep "at", which is understood as "an inexpensive college".

Gapping is a very useful (and perfectly normal) way of demonstrating the covert presence of a relativised element.

BillJ

Fivejedjon · Answer

BillJHere it is again: "... an inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at ______], The 'gap' notation, a blank underscore, represents (in this case) the missing complement of the stranded prep "at", which is understood as "an inexpensive college". Gapping is a very useful (and p

We clearly come from different schools.

My feeling is that there is no 'missing compement'. The complement, or object, or whatever term you prefer, of 'at' is the relative pronoun 'that', which refers back to 'an inexpensive college'.

BillJ · Answer

fivejedjonBillJHere it is again: "... an inexpensive college [that my brother could also get a scholarship at ____], The 'gap' notation, a blank underscore, represents (in this case) the missing complement of the stranded prep "at", which is understood as "an inexpensive college". Gapping is a very useful (and pWe clearly come from different schools.My feeling is that there is no 'missing compement'. The complement, or object, or whatever term you prefer, of 'at' is the relative pronoun 'that', which refers back to 'an inexpensive college'.

It's only 'missing' in terms of its absence from its 'normal' grammatical, or functional, position.

"That" does have "an inexpensive college" as antecedent, of course, but it's occupying a clause-initial position rather than one according to its function in the relative clause. Relativised elements like "that" always have a function (subject, object, etc). Its function here is complement of preposition, so a 'gap' (an abstract element that is co-indexed with "that"), is inserted after the prep it complements (if it were subject, the gap would inserted before the verb; if it were object it would be after the verb, and so on). 'Gapping' is used with that-relatives for analysis purposes. Here are some of the most common functions of "that", with a gap to indicate its functional position in the clause:

SUBJECT: Some friends [that __ saw her]
OBJECT: A key [that she found __]
COMP OF PREP: Those books [that I referred to __]
ADJUNCT OF TIME: The day [that you were born ___]

I don't think I can add any more on this subject.

BillJ

CalifJim · Answer

fivejedjonThe complement, or object, or whatever term you prefer, of 'at' is the relative pronoun 'that', which refers back to 'an inexpensive college'.

Yes, but you can show graphically where the complement originally came from. A lot of books do this. It's actually a very useful teaching device.

The book that I read yesterday is on that table.

"comes from"

The book is on that table.
I read the book yesterday.
______________

The second sentence is going to be incorporated into the first. This can be conceptualized as moving "the book" to the beginning of its clause to form

the book I read ___ yesterday

leaving a gap as shown to show where you got 'the book' from in the original sentence.

Combining the two 'sentences', we have

The book the book I read ____ yesterday is on that table.

Last step: Replace the second occurrence of 'the book' with whatever relative word you need:

The book that I read ___ yesterday is on that table.

Removing the gap indicator, you have the normal sentence:

The book that I read yesterday is on that table.

CJ

Fivejedjon · Answer

CalifJimes, but you can show graphically where the complement originally came from. A lot of books do this. It's actually a very useful teaching device

Thank you, and BillJ for the explanations. I have not come across this before. I wondered if this was an American thing, but I see Bill's from England. I must just have a gap in my knowledge.

CalifJim · Answer

fivejedjonI wondered if this was an American thing

Well! Being an American, I'll have to bet that it started here, and then spread to other countries like wildfire because it was so innovative and useful.

Actually, my bet is on Chomsky, in the 1960's, though I can't swear to it.

CJ

Relative pronoun 'where' and/or 'that'

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