Relative clause

Question

Hi,The primary role of  a restrictive relative clause, according to my grammar book, is to provide a distinguishing property.  For example,I didn't like the guy who spoke first.Here, the property of having spoken first is presented as crucial for picking out the person I didn't like.  The relative clause plays an essential role in identifying the person I didn't like.Okay, I can uderstand this without much difficulty.  But what about the following case?She was wearing a dress that I'd never seen before.You can't say the relative clause is playing an identifier role here.  The listener would not be able to pick out the dress I'm talking about.   Then, what is the role of the relative clause of this kind?I'd appreciate your help.

Canadian45 · Accepted Answer

jooneyBut what about the following case? She was wearing a dress that I'd never seen before.

You can't say the relative clause is playing an identifier role here. In a way it is; it's giving information about the dress. The listener would not be able to pick out the dress I'm talking about. That's not the point. The listener is not required to pick out the dress. And neither does anyone have to identify the guy who spoke first.

Then, what is the role of the relative clause of this kind?. It gives information, in this case about the dress, as all adjective clauses do.
c45

Awence · Answer

In your second example, I'd never seen before - it is playing the role of "adjectival clause"

which dress? the one i'd never seen before. Hope it helps

Jooney · Answer

Thank you C45 and Awence for answering my question.  It was not a good question.  Thanks.

CalifJim · Answer

Okay, I can uderstand this without much difficulty. Good, because it's important!

But what about the following case?

She was wearing a dress that I'd never seen before.

You can't say the relative clause is playing an identifier role here. True. The listener would not be able to pick out the dress I'm talking about. True, but the speaker recognizes this by using the indefinite article a instead of the definite article the. I believe the text was saying, or meant to imply, that a restrictive relative clause (almost always) has the identifier role when the antecedent is definite (i.e., when it has the).

Then, what is the role of the relative clause of this kind? I don't really know a good term. In any case I suppose it would be a secondary role, since the identifier role was already mentioned as the primary role.

CJ

AlpheccaStars · Answer

The clause is still restrictive, because it is essential in describing one dress out of a set of many. The meaning of the sentence changes when the clause is removed.

She was wearing a dress that I'd never seen before. (That's the kind of dress she had on.)

She was wearing a dress. (e.g She was not wearing jeans or a bikini.)

I have seen the terminology essential / nonessential, restrictive / non-restrictive and other descriptors of these clauses. The key is not in the idea that the reader can or cannot identify the person or object, but rather if the clause is essential to the full meaning of the sentence.

Jooney · Answer

Thank you CJ and Astars, you really helped me a great deal.

I have another question.

In many grammar books, especially the ones written in Korean, there are tons of exercises like the following:

A: I can't find the book

B: He recommended the book.

C: I can't find the book which he recommended.

You have two separate items of information such as "A" and "B", and when you combine them, you get "C".

But that is not the only possible relative clause.

D: He recommended the book which I can't find.

I'm wondering if these two("C" and "D")can be equivalent.

Restrictive relative clauses have it in common that they distinguish a subset of a larger set. For example,

I can't find the book which he recommended.

When the speaker begins to utter this sentence, "I can't find the book...", the listener starts guessing which one he is referring to. Is it the one that he bought the other day? Is it the one that he uses in his English class? etc..

When the speaker completes the sentence by adding the relative clause, the listener now has enough information to pick out the book he can't find. In that respect, the relative clause has a distinguishing property.

With that in mind, can "D" be an equivalent of "C"?

He recommended the book which I can't find.

Again, the listener can't know what book he recommended until the speaker provides further information in the relative clause.

I'd appreciate your help on this.

CalifJim · Answer

C: I can't find the book which he recommended.

D: He recommended the book which I can't find.

I'm wondering if these two("C" and "D")can be equivalent.

No. In the general case these are semantically distinct, even if you manage to find some cases where the two forms are semantically equivalent.

C is about a search for a book; D is about a recommendation.

(D is a bit anomalous to my ear, by the way, though it might be fine in the right context.)

_______________

Note that Huddleston (from whose book I noticed you've taken other examples) cautions against believing that The A which is X is Y means the same as A is X and A is Y. For example,

Nobody who knows her could believe her capable of such an act.

does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination,

Nobody knows her and nobody could believe her capable of such an act.

CJ

Jooney · Answer

Thank you very much for your help, CJ.<img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

Awence · Answer

in fact, I am more familiar with the terminology,

non-defining clause = nonrestrictive clause

defining clause = restrictive clause

There is a minor difference. I don't know if you know about the difference and whether this difference will you understand better.

Relative clause

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