reflexive pronoun

Question

The majority of the patients attending the medical out-patients departments of hospitals feel that they have not received adequate treatment unless they are able to carry home with them some tangible remedy in the shape of a bottle of medicine, or a box of pills.

Q) Some students of mine asked why themselves can't replace "them" in the underlined part.
I had no clear idea why it can't.

1. Carry something home (with me).
2. Take something home (with me).

Are the structure(with me) like #1 and #2 just fixed expression? Does it simply emphasize who carry/take something home or add no meaning?

Q2) Can this structure be approached with the examples below?
Binding theory.
The mark * means ungramatical.

3.Bill went to shave himself(him*) in the bathroom.
4. I want her to see me(myself *)

GPY · Accepted Answer

Q) There is no reflexive sense -- no sense that the agent is performing an action involving itself.

"with them" (or "with me" in your further examples) does not add a great deal of extra meaning in cases like this, as it is assumed anyway. I would not really call these patterns fixed expressions.

Q2) Correct.

Moon7296 · Answer

GPY There is no reflexive sense -- no sense that the agent is performing an action involving itself.

Does it mean my explanation below doesn't make sense?

As far as I concern, #1 and #2 can be said like this.

3. I carried a bag home with me.
4. I carried a bag home with him. (I think this means he and I carried a bag home together, holding it together.)
5. I could have carried a bag home with him but I carried it (home) (with) myself.

Althought it looks like the sentence #5 doesn't sound good, the reflexive "myself" gives sense of the agent "I" performing an action involving itself. By saying "myself" I think the agent emphasizes he/she is THE ONE who carried it home.

CalifJim · Answer

moon7296Q) Some students of mine asked why themselves can't replace "them" in the underlined part.I had no clear idea why it can't.1. Carry something home (with me).2. Take something home (with me).

According to Beth Levin, 'Verbs of Carrying' treat reflexives in an idiosyncratic way that is not explained by binding theory.

See

moon7296Q2) Can this structure be approached with the examples below?Binding theory.The mark * means ungramatical.3.Bill went to shave himself(him*) in the bathroom. 4. I want her to see me(myself *)

You can argue that Bill and himself are in the same clause in 3 while I and me are in different clauses in 4. (But that argument doesn't apply to your original 'problem sentence'.)

Bill went [(in order for Bill) to shave himself.] / I want [(her to see me)].

This is confirmed in 4 by the possibility of I want (her to see herself), where herself is OK because it's in the same clause as her. In 3 Bill went to shave him has Bill shaving some other man.

A reflexive is used only within the same clause as its subject (except when it isn't, as in the case of the 'carry' verbs).
____________

Another explanation is given by reference to agency.

You don't need the reflexive in many cases where the pronoun object of a preposition serves as a reference location (rather than as an agent).

She heard a noise behind her.
He pulled the basket toward him.
She always carried some money with her.

I'm not sure how far you can get with this kind of explanation, but there may be something to it.

moon72961. Carry something home (with me).2. Take something home (with me).Are the structure(with me) like #1 and #2 just fixed expression? Does it simply emphasize who carry/take something home or add no meaning?

I suppose you could call them fixed expressions, or you could say that they add emphasis, but neither of those is a real explanation.

CJ

GPY · Answer

moon7296As far as I concern, #1 and #2 can be said like this.3. I carried a bag home with me.4. I carried a bag home with him. (I think this means he and I carried a bag home together, holding it together.)5. I could have carried a bag home with him but I carried it (home) (with) myself.Althought it looks like the sentence #5 doesn't sound good, the reflexive "myself" gives sense of the agent "I" performing an action involving itself. By saying "myself" I think the agent emphasizes he/she is THE ONE who carried it home.

"with myself" in #5 does not work. I cannot think of any case where you can carry something "with yourself". "I carried it myself" works, but this is a different use.

The use of "with" in #3 is slightly different from the use in #4.

Moon7296 · Answer

CalifJimI suppose you could call them fixed expressions, or you could say that they add emphasis, but neither of those is a real explanation.
CalifJimShe always carried some money with her.

Thank you for further explanation for this thread.

Aside from the structure, perhaps, there's some area that non-native speakers can't exactly grasp "with her" part in "She always carried some money with her."

6. She always carried some money.
7. She always carried some money.

Perhaps, it'd be great if there's any situation where #6 and #7 are used differently.

GPY · Answer

moon72966. She always carried some money.7. She always carried some money.Perhaps, it'd be great if there's any situation where #6 and #7 are used differently.

I suppose you meant one of those to say "She always carried some money with her"?

It's hard to identify any real tangible difference since the meaning conveyed by "with her" is already largely provided by "carried". If you compare "She had some money" and "She had some money with her" then obviously there is more difference because in the first case the money could be in a bank, or whatever. In the "carried" example, you could perhaps say that adding "with her" gives a stronger impression that the money belonged to her and was for her own use.

CalifJim · Answer

moon7296Perhaps, it'd be great if there's any situation where #6 and #7 are used differently.

"to carry (something) with you" is to have (something, usually small) somewhere about you and available for your use (in a wallet, purse, pocket, or just in your hand) (usually, to use at any time, as needed). You don't carry large, heavy things "with you" that are difficult to lift and support.

She (always) carries [a purse / some aspirin / a comb / her credit cards / her driver's license / her cell phone] with her.

The workmen carried the grand piano into the house. (They used their hands and arms to support the piano and transport it.) (They didn't "carry the piano with them".)
The medical emergency team carried the injured woman into the hospital. (They didn't "carry her with them".)

CJ

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