Refering to unreal past events

Question

Hi.I recently realized that English is not very specific (at least for me not a native speaker) when it comes to refering to unreal past events.Even talking about the (unreal) past that is not related to the present, we don't say:  If I had helped her more carefully , she would had died  peacefully last year.  (Wrong)  The kids were very quiet last night. I needn't had worried. (Wrong)  That was very critical mistake, I shouldn't had done it. (Wrong)Instead we say:  If I had helped her more carefully , she would have died  peacefully last year.  The kids were very quiet last night. I needn't have worried.  That was a very critical mistake, I shouldn't have done it.Please confirm the interpretations above and correct them if I'm missing anything important.Thank you very much in advance.

Cool Breeze · Accepted Answer

I don't understand what you mean by "not very specific" but I can tell you that the sentences you have marked "wrong" are indeed wrong. Only an infinitive is possible with a modal/defective auxiliary and dare and need when used grammatically in the same way as the modals. There are two infinitives in English, or, if you count active and passive infinitives separately, there are four. The modal auxiliaries are: can, could; shall, should; will, would; may, might; must and ought. Ought is followed by to, in other words, a full infinitive.

Present infinitive:

Active: He would write it.

Passive: It would be written.

Perfect infintive:

Active: He would have written it.

Passive: It would have been written.

Consequently, would had is always wrong.

CB

Dimsumexpress · Answer

Cool BreezeI don't understand what you mean by "not very specific" but I can tell you that the sentences you have marked "wrong" are indeed wrong.
The modal auxiliaries are: can, could; shall, should; will, would; may, might; must and ought. Ought is followed by to, in other words, a full infinitive.

Present infinitive:
Active: He would write it.
Passive: It would be written.

Perfect infintive:
Active: He would have written it.
Passive: It would have been written.

Consequently, would had is always wrong.

CB

I agree with CB. The use of modal words / auxiliary is quite specific in the rules of conditionals and subjnuctives. It is grammatically wrong to combine two modal words in any sentence construction with the second one being in past tense. e.g. You shouldn't had done it. We could say though: You shouldn't hae done it. When we write conditioanl sentences, we can use any modal words in conjunction with "have" and a "paspt participle" to form a present perfect conditional. e.g.

If I had taken my future a little more seriously, I would have studied harder and graduated from UCLA last year with my BS degree in Chemistry. ( But the fact is, I messed up and hanged around with the wrong people partying my life away). This is a counter-factual conditional (3rd). Sometimes, we can also use the verb -subject inversion: " Had I taken my future a litle more seriously...I would have ......." to creates a more emphetic effect.

I hope this link cna help you:

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conditional.htm

CalifJim · Answer

kook jEven talking about the (unreal) past that is not related to the present, we don't say:

If I had helped her more carefully , she would had died peacefully last year. (Wrong)
The kids were very quiet last night. I needn't had worried. (Wrong)
That was very critical mistake, I shouldn't had done it. (Wrong)

Instead we say:

If I had helped her more carefully , she would have died peacefully last year.
The kids were very quiet last night. I needn't have worried.
That was a very critical mistake, I shouldn't have done it.

Please confirm the interpretations above ...

Yes. I can confirm that. Only 'have' is permitted after a modal verb. So you can use 'would' or 'would have', but never 'would had', 'would having', or 'would has'. The same goes for 'may' and 'may have', 'must' and 'must have', and so on.

Generally speaking, the addition of 'have' after a modal makes the situation about past time.

I may go. ~ Maybe I will go (sooner or later in the future)

I may have gone. ~ Maybe I did go = Maybe I went (in the past).

We can't add "ed" to a modal verbs to make them past, but we add 'have' to them to get a similar effect.

CJ

Kook j · Answer

Thank you very much CB, DE and CJ.

I don't think I need to explain what I thought any further here. That wouldn't be relevant outside of my head. Anyway thank you again.

Refering to unreal past events

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