Reduction in relative clauses

Question

HiOne of my grammar books Grammar in Context tells the following about reductions in non-defining relative clauses:Shortened constructions impossible1- They spend a lot of time in their garden, which runs right down to a river ( right down to a river is underlined'')2- David, who is going fishing with Harry, is his nephewWhat I want to learn is why these sentences above can't be shortenedAnd about the reduction in defining relative clauses it says that if the sentence contain verbs that describe mental state, it can't be shortened. This is okay but in non-defining relative clauses the book shortenes a sentence with mental state i.e know. Here is the sentence's being non-defining or defining the only difference???Here is the exampleHarry, who know how disappointed David was, gave him a special baitHarry,knowing how disappointed David was, gave him a special baitThanks in advance

Gencebay90 · Accepted Answer

Is there any opinion???

Please!

Cool Breeze · Answer

Hi Gencebay

Sentence No. 1 has a realtive clause and if it were shortened - or as I prefer to say, if a clause equivalent were used - it would read:

They spend a lot of time in their garden running right down to a river.

That would be grammatically correct but it would mean that these people (= they) run to a river because there is a preposition in the phrase in their garden. That means it cannot be the subject of the clause equivalent running right down to a river. Clearly, that is not what is intended. I don't know a grammatical reason that makes a clause equivalent impossible for sentence No. 2. There isn't a rule for everything, or if there is one for this, I don't know it. If we change the sentence a little, a clause equivalent is possible:

Harry, running alongside David, is his cousin.

This seems to be against the rule in your grammar book. I have never heard that rule, by the way. Your mother tongue may be a more logical one than English, with fewer exceptions. It is impossible to have rules that cover all usage of a language, especially the English language. You'll just have to learn English piecemeal and accept the oddities, there is no other way.

Bear in mind that you are learning a language whose speakers used a monetary system in which a pound was equal to 20 shillings and a shilling was equal to 12 pence. The same nation has built underground lines with curved tracks where station platforms are, creating gaps big enough for a child to fall down in them and necessitating announcements: Mind the gap!

And if you take a Piccadilly line tube to Heathrow Airport, you'll notice that the train floor isn't always flush with the station platform. It's sometimes two inches above it, sometimes two inches below.

As far as the English language is concerned, expect the unexpected.

Cheers
CB

Goodman · Answer

Gencebay90Hi

One of my grammar books ~~Grammar in Context~~ tells the following about reductions in non-defining relative clauses:

Shortened constructions impossible

1- They spend a lot of time in their garden, which runs right down to a river ( right down to a river is underlined'')

2- David, who is going fishing with Harry, is his nephew

What I want to learn is why these sentences above can't be shortenedAnd about the reduction in defining relative clauses it says that if the sentence contain verbs that describe mental state, it can't be shortened. This is okay but in non-defining relative clauses the book shortenes a sentence with mental state i.e know. Here is the sentence's being non-defining or defining the only difference???

Here is the example

Harry, who know how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait

Thanks in advance

Harry,knowing how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait -It's fine

I have a little trouble though with "running down the river" as a participle clause to shorten the relative clause. It sounded like they spend a lot of time in his garden (acutally running down to the river). If you tried to described their garden which is situated by / alongside the river, consider this: They spend a lot of time [enjoying their riverside garden] or [garden by the river].

Gencebay90 · Answer

Thank you both so much for your help

P.S: But some other opinons are still welcomed as well

Hoa Thai · Answer

Hi Gencebay,

I can see the difficulties in trying to keep the construct of the sentences and shorten them. But if I have my way, I would offer a few alternative:

First one:
They spend a lot of time in their garden adjacent to a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden overlooking a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden landscaped straight to a river.

Second one:
Harry's nephew, David is going fishing with him.

Won't do?

Take care,
Hoa Thai

Gencebay90 · Answer

By the way this book - Grammar in Context- belongs to a native speaker, Hugh Gethin. You probabley know him but I wanted to remind

Gencebay90 · Answer

Hoa ThaiHi Gencebay,

I can see the difficulties in trying to keep the construct of the sentences and shorten them. But if I have my way, I would offer a few alternative:

First one:
They spend a lot of time in their garden adjacent to a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden overlooking a river.
They spend a lot of time in their garden landscaped straight to a river.

Second one:
Harry's nephew, David is going fishing with him.

Won't do?

Take care,
Hoa Thai

Thank you very much Hoa Thai but what I want to learn in particular is why those sentences can't be shortened

Marius Hancu · Answer

Harry, who knew how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait.

gave him a special bait
A bit strange, what do you mean?

Gencebay90 · Answer

Marius HancuHarry, who knew how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait.

gave him a special bait
A bit strange, what do you mean?

This sentence is from a book which gives all its examples in context, that is to say there are some sentences about fishing before and after this sentence; I mean David couldn't catch any fish and as a result he was disappointed, and so Harry gave him a special bait

Gencebay90 · Answer

Gencebay90Hi

One of my grammar books ~~Grammar in Context~~ tells the following about reductions in non-defining relative clauses:

Shortened constructions impossible

1- They spend a lot of time in their garden, which runs right down to a river ( right down to a river is underlined'')

2- David, who is going fishing with Harry, is his nephew

What I want to learn is why these sentences above can't be shortenedAnd about the reduction in defining relative clauses it says that if the sentence contain verbs that describe mental state, it can't be shortened. This is okay but in non-defining relative clauses the book shortenes a sentence with mental state i.e know. Here is the sentence's being non-defining or defining the only difference???

Here is the example

Harry, who know how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait

Harry,knowing how disappointed David was, gave him a special bait

Thanks in advance

Hi again

Could you please tell me more about this problem of mine?

Reduction in relative clauses

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