"Which picture of who(m) did you like?"

Question

This grammar question below was asked of a Japanese colleague of mine. Questions (1) and (2) do not sound at all natural to me as a native speaker, even in the most formal of situations; however, I cannot provide a grammatical explanation to support or refute my assertion. Could anyone shed some light on the questions posed below?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

> I have a favor to ask of you. I would like to know the grammatical status
> of the sentences (1)-(3). Are they acceptable (ok), marginal (?) or
> unacceptable (*)? Crucally, the status of (3).
>
> (status)
> (1) ( ) Which picture of who(m) did you like?
> A possible answer to this question may consist of multiple pairs of the
> photographer and the subject, for example (I guess).
> E.g., "I liked John's picture of Ann (not Edwin's picture of Susanne, etc.)
> and Ray's picture of Margaret (not Richard's picture of Sam, etc.)"
> (2) ( ) I wonder which picture of who(m) you liked.
> (3) Who do you wonder which picture of he liked?
>
> I am assuming that (1)-(2) are acceptable. Are they?
> My concern here is with the question whether it is in general possible to
> extract an interrogative word/phrase (e.g. "who(m)" in (3)) out of a larger
> interrogative phrase (e.g. "which picture of who(m)" in (3)), as in (3). It
> should not be possible, given "my theory" I am advocating in my paper (in
> preparation).

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi Steve,

Welcome to the Forum.

This grammar question below was asked of a Japanese colleague of mine. Questions (1) and (2) do not sound at all natural to me as a native speaker, even in the most formal of situations; however, I cannot provide a grammatical explanation to support or refute my assertion. Could anyone shed some light on the questions posed below?

I have a favor to ask of you. I would like to know the grammatical status
of the sentences (1)-(3). Are they acceptable (ok), marginal (?) or
unacceptable (*)? Crucally, the status of (3).

These all sound very awkward, and in fact unacceptable, to me. It seems to me that you are asking two questions at once, and the second one needs to be more explicit.

(1) ( ) Which picture of who(m) did you like?

If you say 'which', you may get an answer like 'The one in front of the tree, with Tom sitting on the ground', so I'd say 'whose'.

Whose picture, and of whom, did you like?

A possible answer to this question may consist of multiple pairs of the
photographer and the subject, for example (I guess).
E.g., "I liked John's picture of Ann (not Edwin's picture of Susanne, etc.)
and Ray's picture of Margaret (not Richard's picture of Sam, etc.)"
(2) ( ) I wonder which picture of who(m) you liked.

I wonder whose picture, and of whom, you liked?

(3) Who do you wonder which picture of he liked? This is an extremely awkward thing to say. It's so hard to understand the meaning that it seems wrong.

Perhaps Whose picture, and of whom, do you wonder that he liked?

I am assuming that (1)-(2) are acceptable. Are they?
My concern here is with the question whether it is in general possible to
extract an interrogative word/phrase (e.g. "who(m)" in (3)) out of a larger
interrogative phrase (e.g. "which picture of who(m)" in (3)), as in (3). It
should not be possible, given "my theory" I am advocating in my paper (in
preparation).

Best wishes, Clive

Avangi · Answer

Hi Steve,

Sorry to blow it so spectacularly on your first post, but I really strike out on this one. I hope another member comes along and rises to the occasion. I'm just a regular member, but welcome to the Fora.

The only things making any sense to me are your request for help and your sample answer, "I liked John's picture of Ann (not Edwin's picture of Susanne, etc.)" How in tarnation you were able to arrive at that from the question as posed is beyond me. I look forward with some trepidation to the release of your paper.

This is really a great site with some very talented staff and regulars.

Apologies again, - A.

Steve S. · Answer

Thanks very much for the welcome.

Just to clarify: the message in quotes is not mine, but that of a Japanese colleague at my university. He is the one writing the paper.

None of the statements in 1-3 sound correct to me. However, my Japanese colleague is assuming that (1) and (2) are acceptable, to which I would reply that they do not sound grammatical to me. However, I cannot provide a grammatical explanation as to why they sound ungrammatical. I'm looking for a grammatical explanation.

Thanks,
Steve

Avangi · Answer

Hi Steve,

My problem is, the constructions are so bizarre and unlikely I can't even guess what's intended. That would almost be a prerequisite to offering a recommentation.

I'll try again after I've had some rest. I'll see if I can "provide a grammatical explanation as to why they seem so ungrammatical."

Best wishes, - A.

Clive · Answer

Hi again, Steve,

OK, let me have another go at this. I'm just going to focus for the moment on #1.

(1) ( ) Which picture of who(m) did you like?

There are two separate questions here.

Which picture did you like?

Of whom did you like the picture?

Grammatically, one would combine these questions by using 'and', ie

Which picture did you like and of whom did you like the picture?

One could then eliminate the repetition, arriving at Which picture, and of whom, did you like?

I can see no grammatical justification for continuing by eliminating the 'and', as was done in the original.

What do you think about this approach?

( I'm intrigued by the idea that people in Japan are writing papers on such sentences. )

Clive

Khoff · Answer

I agree -- the questions all have to be divided into two parts.

Another problem with this very problematic sentence Which picture of who(m) did you like? is the ambiguity of "of whom". This remains even if you change it into the slightly more manageable "Which picture did you like? And of whom?" Does it refer to the person in the picture, or the person who took the picture?

If you say "Which picture of Ann did you like" it would mean choosing among the picture of Ann in a red dress, the picture of Ann by the sea, the picture of Ann as a baby, etc.

If you say "Which picture of Ann's did you like," it means choosing among several pictures taken by Ann -- Ann's picture of her dog, Ann's picture of her cat, Ann's picture of the Eiffel Tower, etc.

I don't know which of these questions the original sentence is trying to ask. (Which picture did you like? And was it a picture of Ann, or of Ted, or of Mr. Pedantic?") or (Which picture did you like? And was it by Matthew Brady, Diane Arbus, or Edward Steichen?)

Cool Breeze · Answer

Steve S.However, I cannot provide a grammatical explanation as to why they sound ungrammatical. I'm looking for a grammatical explanation.

In the grammatical terminology and usage I am familiar with, which and whom are either interrogative pronouns or relative pronouns. In the sentences they are neither and thus incorrect.

CB

Clive · Answer

Hi CB,

In ' Which picture . . . ?', which is an interrogative adjective.

Clive

Avangi · Answer

Hi Steve - just thinkin' out loud:

"Crucially, the status of (3),"

(3) "Who do you wonder which picture of he liked?"

Who are the characters in this plot?

A. the judge - the "he" who either likes or does not like - or perhaps "prefers" - certain pictures

B. the curious person or non-person - the "you" who wonders. (Is he an imaginary person, a dummy, as in "You really have to wonder about that guy," or "One can only assume he doesn't exist.")

C. the speaker - the person who is posing this question, or wrote this "sentence."

D. the subject - the person or persons depicted in the picture or pictures.

E. the identifier - the person we associate with a given picture among several pictures of the same subject. (There is actually nothing in (3) to lead us to believe all pictures under consideration were not taken [if photos] by the same photographer.)

There's nothing in (3) to suggest multiple subjects - only multiple pictures. They may all be of the same person - and by the way, who is she/he?

We all seem to agree that the "who?" and the "which?" are separate questions which should be broken up. They require separate clauses if not separate sentences.

The "do you wonder" clause need not be part of the question. It only adds to the confusion. It goes better as a statement: "We wonder which picture he liked, and of whom it was taken."

We (actually, I) also have to wonder if the thread about the single dots on the computer screens of 100 students is going to be part of this paper.

Finally, what is grammatically wrong with (3)? There are two interrogative pronouns asking two different questions. The clauses are intermingled and "do you wonder" is thrown in to cloud the issue. It's as though someone tossed all the words into the air and let them form one sentence as they hit the ground. (Perhaps this was intercepted by CITA's radio telescopes.)

Regards, - A.

P.S.

Steve SMy concern here is with the question whether it is in general possible to extract an interrogative word/phrase (e.g. "who(m)" in (3)) out of a larger interrogative phrase (e.g. "which picture of who(m)" in (3)), as in (3). It should not be possible, given "my theory" I am advocating in my paper (in preparation).

Sorry, but I never understood what you meant by this question. Extract, and do what with it??

CalifJim · Answer

1)Which picture of who(m) did you like?
(2) I wonder which picture of who(m) you liked.
(3) Who do you wonder which picture of he liked?

All unacceptable. About the most complicated you can get in English asking multiple questions in one question is Who did what to whom?

The semantic complexities of representations, where you have the ambiguity that "X's picture" may be either a picture wherein X is pictured or a picture belonging to X (regardless of who is pictured), are so great, and the need to express them so infrequent, that English seems never to have evolved any grammatical machinery for handling them.

CJ

"Which picture of who(m) did you like?"

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