Questions about '-ed' form of adjectives(?)

Question

Hi teachers this is Raymond.I find some phrases that I don't understand their grammar structure.See the examples below:'Designers needed''Call me if needed''Purchase cancelled''Update found'Well I know past participles can be used as adjectives,but normally we put adjectives before a noun right?Like : Handsome guy, pretty womanHowever, from the above examples,if the words 'needed',  'cancelled' and 'found' are adjectives,why it is placed after the noun it modifies?This makes me confused and don't understand the usage of  the '-ed' verb form again Could teachers please give me a detailed explanation about this question?Thanks a millon

Avangi · Accepted Answer

These are not intended as grammatical sentences. They may be memos, signs, headers, titles, etc.

To make sentences out of them, simply add the verbs:
Designers are needed.
Call me if I am needed. (Call me if need be. -- old fashioned)
Purchase is/has been cancelled.
Update is/has been found. This is the update we found:

Raymond Kii · Answer

Thanks for your reply Avangi:)
However, consider the following sentence:

'There is a cost involved.'

This is propably not a text from memos, signs and titles but from a passage.

However, why the adjective is placed after the noun it modifies? (in predicative position?)
I really don't understand because usually i see that adjectives are placed in attributive position...

---------------------------------------------------------------
Another question that comes to my mind is,
in reduced relative clause, we use a present/ past participle to replace the relative and the verb to be;

For example,
The book placed on the table looks interesting.

My question is, do we consider the word 'placed' functions as an adjective modifying 'the book' ; OR
we consider the whole phrase, "placed on the table" as an adjective modifying 'the book' ??

I am still confused with the use of past participles:(
I really hope teachers could give me a detailed information

Thanks a million:)

Avangi · Answer

Raymond Kii'There is a cost involved.'

I see your point. My "ear" reads this as "There is a cost which/that is involved."

There's probably a grammatical term for this phenomenon. Is it a "reduced" something or other?

(A cost is involved.)

"There's X" is sort of a bas tard child when it comes to grammar.

<< The book placed on the table looks interesting.>>

For my money, the relative clause "which is placed on the table" is in passive voice, and the participle is simply part of the passive structure, "it is placed."

AlpheccaStars · Answer

Avangi:

You are thinking of a reduced relative clause. The verb is reduced from finite to non-finite. It can be in the form of a present or past participle. The "reduced clause" can contain adverbs, agents and objects. relative clauses come after the noun that they reference.

The book lying unopened on the table hasn't been read yet.
The costs incurred by the wars broke the country's budget.

I really like Jim's explanation on when a past participle is an adjective and when it's something else.

Raymond Kii · Answer

Thanks both Avangi and AlpheccaStars

Um...maybe I need to wait for some other teachers to help me about this problem?
Actually the sentence 'there is a cost involved.' is not a relative clause.
what comes to my mind is that the word 'involved' is modifying the word 'cost',
but is it functioning as an adjective?

But more importantly, I really want to know why it is placed in a predicative position.
That sounds weird to me since I am not a native speaker and I usually see adjectives are used in attributive position.

And for the second question, I just want to know whether the whole relative clause part is acting as an 'adjective'
OR only the past participle is acting as an 'adjective'.

I know these questions sound complicated, but I really can't find any answers because my grammar textbook don't have such detailed informations and it just gives a very brief idea.

But anyway, thanks all of you

Avangi · Answer

Raymond Kiimaybe I need to wait for some other teachers

Seems like a good plan.

Surely "There is a cost involved" is not a relative clause. But there's no question at all that the relative clause "which is involved" would modify "cost." That is to say, the clause would function adjectivally. And the past participle represents the clause.

Phrases which modify nouns often follow them.

Good luck! - A.

CalifJim · Answer

Raymond KiiActually the sentence 'there is a cost involved.' is not a relative clause.what comes to my mind is that the word 'involved' is modifying the word 'cost',but is it functioning as an adjective?

To say "functions as an adjective" is simply to say "modifies a noun", and vice versa, so whatever functions as an adjective modifies a noun, and whatever modifies a noun functions as an adjective. I don't think an attempt to see a difference between these gets us anywhere.

It seems to me that involved is a verb (in its past participle form).

X involves a cost. ~ A cost is involved in X. This might be called a statal passive.

Changing to a 'there' construction:

A cost is involved in X > There is a cost involved (in X).
[Similarly, A post office is located on the corner > There is post office located on the corner.]

The transformation to a there-construction brings in a host of analytical difficulties.

A child | was murdered. > There was a child | murdered. [Cf. There was a plate | on the table.]

There was a child | murdered (a complete there-construction) is not the same as There was a murdered child | (an incomplete there-construction). We need something more to complete the second sentence, thus There was a murdered child | on the floor. Now certainly murdered modifies child in murdered child, i.e., it's an adjective. But does murdered also modify child in child murdered, as in the sentence There was a child murdered. In the latter case, do child and murdered even belong to the same constituent of the sentence? I don't think so.

Reasoning like this I believe that in There is a cost involved, involved is a predicate, not a modifier of cost. I don't even know if 'predicate' is the right word, but in any case the status of involved is something less expected than surface appearances might lead us to believe.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

CalifJim I believe that in There is a cost involved, involved is a predicate, not a modifier of cost.

Hi, CJ.
Would that be "predicate" in the grammatical sense? (Your reluctance is noted.)

I scarcely find the term used in modern "mainstream" grammar, while in the 40's it was a staple of nearly every grammar lesson.

I suspect it's been redefined, along with so many other terms.

- A.

CalifJim · Answer

AvangiWould that be "predicate" in the grammatical sense? (Your reluctance is noted.)

Not necessarily in the sense of traditional grammar, but more inclusive, namely, anything that predicates something of another thing. Perhaps it's better seen as a term from semantics than from syntax.

table is thus a predicator. It can predicate 'tablehood' of an object. is a table is a predicate: This is a table.

In the example we were discussing I hypothesize that "involved" is a predicator/predicate. The parts after the vertical bar in all my examples of 'there' constructions would be predicates.

There was a coat | on that hanger.
There will be a party | at Richie's next week.
There is a grammatical error or two | in this text.
There were several plates | broken to bits (after the brawl).
There is a cost | involved.

There is a flower which is beautiful | on the table.
There is a beautiful flower | on the table.

*There is a flower which is beautiful. (No predicate for the 'there' construction as a whole.)
*There is a beautiful flower. (As in previous example.)

*There is a cost which is involved. (As above.)
*There is an involved cost. (As above.)

These last examples are my "evidence" that 'reduced relative clause which modifies a noun' is not exactly the correct analysis - not that I have anything better at the moment.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

Thanks, CJ.  I'm digesting.  <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/87.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/87.gif' alt='Emotion: speechless'/>

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