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This excerpt is from Chronicles of England,Scotland and Ireland by Raphael Holinshed :''When the king was set in his seat(which was richly hung and adorned ),a king-at-arms made open proclamation,prohibiting all men in the name of the king,and of the high Constable and Marshal ,to enterprise or attempt to approach or touch any part of the lists upon pain of death ,except such as appointed to order or marshal the field.''Does it mean that if anyone approached to unappointed areas,would be killed?

Mr Wordy · Accepted Answer

No, I don't think so. I think "except such as appointed" means "except for those people who are appointed".

So, no one is allowed to approach the lists (which as far as I can gather means a jousting field, or something like that) unless they have been appointed as marshals.

Coloraday · Answer

Here is a fight between Bolingbroke the Duke of Hereford and Mowbray the Duke of Norfolk before The King Richard II.I thought the proclamation prohibits the combatants to go to any unappointed area .But now I think you're right but marshal here is a verb and doesn't refer to the combatants.
Thanks

Mr Wordy · Answer

That's correct. "order" and "marshal" are both verbs, and the object of the verbs is "field". The people ordering and marshalling are unlikely to be the combatants; they will be the organisers of the event.

Coloraday · Answer

Thank you very much.

Coloraday · Answer

A question. Does the writer want to say "and also except the people whose jobs are like and related to ordering and marshaling the field by using such as"?
If not what is the meaning of such as here?

Mr Wordy · Answer

coloraday
A question. Does the writer want to say "and also except the people whose jobs are like and related to ordering and marshaling the field by using such as"?

If not what is the meaning of such as here?

It's pretty much as you say, except there is no real sense of "also". If we cut out the intervening clauses we get:

all men ... except such as appointed to order or marshal the field.

Which basically means

all men ... except those (men) appointed to order or marshal the field.

Usually "such as" introduces an example or list of examples. So, you might say "men such as those appointed to order or marshal the field". This refers to a group of men of whom marshals and organisers are typical or representative examples. I imagine you're probably familiar with this usage.

The meaning of "such as" in "except such as" is related but (in my understanding) slightly different. Rather than introducing a list of examples, it introduces an enumeration of exactly those men to whom the exception applies. So, the exception applies to those ordering or marshalling but to no one else. The phrase "except such as" is uncommon in modern English, and sounds formal, literary or even old-fashioned.

Coloraday · Answer

Mr WordyUsually "such as" introduces an example or list of examples. So, you might say "men such as those appointed to order or marshal the field". This refers to a group of men of whom marshals and organisers are typical or representative examples. I imagine you're probably familiar with this usage.

Yes,I thought this one is correct.

Mr WordyThe meaning of "such as" in "except such as" is related but (in my understanding) slightly different. Rather than introducing a list of examples, it introduces an enumeration of exactly those men to whom the exception applies. So, the exception applies to those ordering or marshalling but to no one else. The phrase "except such as" is uncommon in modern English, and sounds formal, literary or even old-fashioned.

I didn't know that "except such as" has a special meaning and doesn't refer to any example here.
Thanks

Mr Wordy · Answer

coloradayI didn't know that "except such as" has a special meaning and doesn't refer to any example here.

Actually, there's another subtlety here that I neglected to point out.

As we've seen, "such as" is usually followed by a noun or list of nouns (e.g. "men such as marshals and organisers"). In your quote, "except such as" is followed by a description in the passive voice: "except such as (are/have been) appointed to order or marshal the field" (the words in brackets are omitted, but the sense is effectively passive). Following it with a lists of nouns -- for example, "except such as marshals and organisers" -- doesn't seem natural to me, but if I did read it I would understand marshals and organisers to be representative examples. So, the passive construction seems to be somehow instrumental in changing the meaning from that of an example (or examples) to that of a definitive categorisation.

It's complicated!

Edit: In fact, this explanation still doesn't seem right. I don't think the passive sense is necessary. For example, if the original said "men ... expect such as work to marshal or organise the field" then I'd still understand it to mean only mashals and organisers. So, maybe we just need a verb form to follow.

Sorry ... I seem to be making this very confusing.

Coloraday · Answer

May be "such as" here functions as a noun that refers to "men" and the phrase was something like this:"men ... expect such as who are appointed to marshal or organise the field" and "such as" doesn't have the common meaning that is introducing some examples.

Mr Wordy · Answer

coloraday
May be "such as" here functions as a noun that refers to "men" and the phrase was something like this:"men ... expect such as who are appointed to marshal or organise the field" and "such as" doesn't have the common meaning that is introducing some examples.

I think you're right.

In "men... except such as (are) appointed to order or marshal the field", "such" functions as a pronoun, meaning "those men", and "as" kind of has the sense of "who". So, we get "men... except those men who are appointed to order or marshal the field".

In "men such as marshals...", "such as" has a different grammatical function. I'm not sure what part of speech "such" is here, but it sure doesn't seem like a pronoun.

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