Punctuation marks inside " "

Question

Hi again,This is another doubt I've had since long time ago.It looks like, if I quote something in a sentence, I should write inside the quotation marks any punctuation mark that otherwise would follow the closing quotation mark, in the main sentence.For instance, I should write:Talking about wisdom, Socrates wrote "Wisdom begins in wonder," whereas Daniel Webster claimed "Wisdom begins at the end."(Independent question: Is correct to capitalize "wisdom" inside those quotation marks?)Notice I wrote the comma and the period inside the quotation marks, as I believe is the correct way.However, if that is the rule, I find it a little frustrating not being able to quote not only words, but also punctuation marks. What if I want to quote not only what someone wrote, but also how exactly s/he wrote it, including punctuation marks?For instance, imagine I'm a teacher, grading the language exam of one of my students. This student forgot to write a period at the end of a sentence, and I am taking 0.5 points off his/her grade, and also writing a not for him/her.Can I write the following sentence?I took 0.5 points from your grade because you forgot the final period, and you wrote "It was not Paul or Mary"or should I write the following?I took 0.5 points from your grade because you forgot the final period, and you wrote "It was not Paul or Mary".I know that if I reword the sentence, changing the order of the words, I can avoid facing this dilemma but, what if I want to write those words in that order?Thank you very much in advance.Mochuelo

Usenet · Accepted Answer

In our last episode,
(Email Removed),
the lovely and talented Mochuelo
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
[nq:1]Hi again, This is another doubt I've had since long time ago. It looks like, if I quote something in a sentence, I should write inside the quotation marks any punctuation mark that otherwise would follow the closing quotation mark, in the main sentence.[/nq]
This is a frequently asked question. It is discussed in mini-FAQ D:
Linkname: AUE: Intro D: Mini-FAQ on Grammar, Usage & Punctuation URL:
The short answer is: In America the standard practice is to place periods and commas within the quotation marks regardless of whether they logically belong to the quoted material, but to place all other marks according to whether they belong to the quoted material. That is also a minority view in the UK.
[nq:1]For instance, I should write: Talking about wisdom, Socrates wrote "Wisdom begins in wonder," whereas Daniel Webster claimed "Wisdom begins at the end." (Independent question: Is correct to capitalize "wisdom" inside those quotation marks?)[/nq]
Yes. If it is important to emphasize that the word is not capitalized in the original, the capital letter can be enclosed in square brackets (): You should ask yourself "(W)hat you can do for your country."
[nq:1]Notice I wrote the comma and the period inside the quotation marks, as I believe is the correct way. However, ... if I want to quote not only what someone wrote, but also how exactly s/he wrote it, including punctuation marks?[/nq]
For more than a line or two, you can alway use a block quote. Or if it is important to emphasize that the mark is not in the original, you can place it in square brackets.
This is a recurring problem for writers on computer-related subjects who must make clear exactly what should be keyed in at a prompt or exactly how various messages read. In many cases, however, they find solutions that do not involve quotation marks because some users will wonder whether to key in the quotation marks. These solutions include placing keystrokes in a contrasting color or on a separate line.
[nq:1]For instance, imagine I'm a teacher, grading the language exam of one of my students. This student forgot to write ... 0.5 points from your grade because you forgot the final period, and you wrote "It was not Paul or Mary".[/nq]
Try: ... and you wrote "It was not Paul or Mary" (sic).
[nq:1]I know that if I reword the sentence, changing the order of the words, I can avoid facing this dilemma but, what if I want to write those words in that order? Thank you very much in advance. Mochuelo[/nq]
Lars Eighner ~~finger for geek code~~ (Email Removed) http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "The very essence of the creative is its novelty, and hence we have no standard by which to judge it." Carl R. Rogers, On Becoming a Person

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]the lovely and talented Mochuelo broadcast on alt.usage.english:[/nq]
[nq:2]For instance, I should write: Talking about wisdom, Socrates wrote ... Is (it) correct to capitalize "wisdom" inside those quotation marks?)[/nq]
[nq:1]Yes. If it is important to emphasize that the word is not capitalized in the original, the capital letter can be enclosed in square brackets (): You should ask yourself "(W)hat you can do for your country."[/nq]
...except that that's a particularly bad example, since you /wouldn't/ capitalize the word "what" in the phrase "ask yourself what you can do..." You might say, I guess, that JFK said, "(D)o for your country." ;-) The important thing is to capitalize sentences, and to leave uncapitalized phrases that are not complete sentences.
[nq:2]For instance, imagine I'm a teacher, grading the language exam ... period, and you wrote "It was not Paul or Mary".[/nq]
[nq:1]Try: ... and you wrote "It was not Paul or Mary" (sic).[/nq]
I think the first "sentence" is acceptable, given that teachers' notes generally aren't formal anyway. In practice, it'd be more like: circle the missing period and write "-0.5" next to it.

-Arthur

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Hi again, This is another doubt I've had since long time ago. It looks like, if I quote something in a sentence, I should write inside the quotation marks any punctuation mark that otherwise would follow the closing quotation mark, in the main sentence.[/nq]
In the style I advocate ('Style B', to distinguish it from the prevalent Style A), those punctuation-marks assume their natural and logical position after the closing quotation-mark. (Note, however, that Style B is recommended by or used in only a minority of style-guides - the only two I know of being by British and Australian authors - and supported by only a minority of the members of this newsgroup.)
[nq:1]For instance, I should write: Talking about wisdom, Socrates wrote "Wisdom begins in wonder," whereas Daniel Webster claimed "Wisdom begins at the end."[/nq]
In Style B, (without making an issue of the distinction between single & double quotation-marks,) that would be:
Talking about wisdom, Socrates wrote 'Wisdom begins in wonder', whereas Daniel Webster claimed 'Wisdom begins at the end'.

(snip)
[nq:1]Notice I wrote the comma and the period inside the quotation marks, as I believe is the correct way.[/nq]
It is the prevalent, but less logical, way.
[nq:1]However, if that is the rule, I find it a little frustrating not being able to quote not only words, ... 0.5 points from your grade because you forgot the final period, and you wrote "It was not Paul or Mary".[/nq]
In Style B, you would punctuate as above, with the full-stop of the overall sentence coming outside the final quotation-mark.

Style B also allows, in special cases, for the inclusion of a quoted full-stop independently of the full-stop of the overall sentence (the final stop of a quoted segment is normally omitted):

I'm pleased to note that you remembered the final full-stop, and you wrote 'It was not Paul or Mary.'.
...g

Punctuation marks inside " "

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