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Usenet Posted 21 years ago
Usage
Pronoun order
Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in the FAQ or the FAQ supplement or my usage books. I also haven't found a good discussion in Google's archives (though I'm not entirely sure what search terms to use "pronoun order", "order of pronouns"? these haven't been particularly helpful).
Anyway... When you mix a pronoun with a noun, what determines the order of arrangement? Here's some questions that could be asked on the topic:
Why say "Tom and me" instead of "me and Tom", or "Tom and I" instead of "I and Tom"?
Why is there a preference (because I think there's a preference) to put the pronoun first when you're using any pronoun other than the first person singular? "Tom and we/you/she/they went to the movie"? What guidelines apply when you're combining two or more pronouns "They and she went to the movie"?
Do you instinctively put the pronouns in a certain order, or do you have to "correct" yourself?
Are order-of-pronoun rules to do with unconscious linguistic forces (for instance, emphasis, speech rhythm and accent, set phrases), or are they a matter of prescriptivist imposition?
If they're imposed rules, where did the rules come from, when did they arise, and what was their rationale?
Are other languages particular about pronoun order?
==
Regards,
VI
http://kenm.mydeardiary.com/
Anyway... When you mix a pronoun with a noun, what determines the order of arrangement? Here's some questions that could be asked on the topic:
Why say "Tom and me" instead of "me and Tom", or "Tom and I" instead of "I and Tom"?
Why is there a preference (because I think there's a preference) to put the pronoun first when you're using any pronoun other than the first person singular? "Tom and we/you/she/they went to the movie"? What guidelines apply when you're combining two or more pronouns "They and she went to the movie"?
Do you instinctively put the pronouns in a certain order, or do you have to "correct" yourself?
Are order-of-pronoun rules to do with unconscious linguistic forces (for instance, emphasis, speech rhythm and accent, set phrases), or are they a matter of prescriptivist imposition?
If they're imposed rules, where did the rules come from, when did they arise, and what was their rationale?
Are other languages particular about pronoun order?
==
Regards,
VI
http://kenm.mydeardiary.com/
Top answer
On 13 Feb 2005 13:53:57 -0800, "voice imitator" [nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ... rules come from, when did they arise, and what was their rationale? [/nq] I think the choice of "Tom and I" in preference to "I and Tom" is a matter of deferential courtesy.
- On 13 Feb 2005 13:53:57 -0800, "voice imitator" [nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ...
- rules come from, when did they arise, and what was their rationale?
- [/nq] I think the choice of "Tom and I" in preference to "I and Tom" is a matter of deferential courtesy.
- It's simply polite to out the other person first.
- Consider the quite acceptable and common "He and Tom", "She and Tom", and "They and Tom".
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37 Answers
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On 13 Feb 2005 13:53:57 -0800, "voice imitator"
[nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ... rules come from, when did they arise, and what was their rationale? Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
I think the choice of "Tom and I" in preference to "I and Tom" is a matter of deferential courtesy. It's simpl
[nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ... rules come from, when did they arise, and what was their rationale? Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
I think the choice of "Tom and I" in preference to "I and Tom" is a matter of deferential courtesy. It's simpl
00
[nq:1]Anyway... When you mix a pronoun with a noun, what determines the order of arrangement? Here's some questions that could be asked on the topic: Why say "Tom and me" instead of "me and Tom", or "Tom and I" instead of "I and Tom"?[/nq]
A lot of people say "me and Tom." And they usually do it when they should be saying "Tom and I."
"me and my brother"
"Me and Julio, blah blah school
A lot of people say "me and Tom." And they usually do it when they should be saying "Tom and I."
"me and my brother"
"Me and Julio, blah blah school
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voice imitator typed thusly:
[nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ... Why say "Tom and me" instead of "me and Tom", or "Tom and I" instead of "I and Tom"?[/nq]
Historically, it was not considered polite to put yourself first in a list of nouns and/or pronouns. So the following sentences sound correct, and sound wrong if yo
[nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ... Why say "Tom and me" instead of "me and Tom", or "Tom and I" instead of "I and Tom"?[/nq]
Historically, it was not considered polite to put yourself first in a list of nouns and/or pronouns. So the following sentences sound correct, and sound wrong if yo
00
Someone asked:
[nq:1]Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
Yes: Latin prefers to put the first person first: ego et tu 'I and you', not tu et ago 'you and I'.
[nq:1]Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
Yes: Latin prefers to put the first person first: ego et tu 'I and you', not tu et ago 'you and I'.
00
Someone asked:
[nq:1]Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
Yes: Latin prefers to put the first person first: ego et tu 'I and you', not tu et ego 'you and I'. Of course, in contexts other than linguistic investigation, you'd express the elements of the phrase in the right order for the language & register into which you're translating.
[nq:1]Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
Yes: Latin prefers to put the first person first: ego et tu 'I and you', not tu et ego 'you and I'. Of course, in contexts other than linguistic investigation, you'd express the elements of the phrase in the right order for the language & register into which you're translating.
00
[nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ... rules come from, when did they arise, and what was their rationale? Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
So far, everyone has stuck to discussing subject pronouns. An interesting change is going on concerning object pronouns.
The standard used to be that sin
So far, everyone has stuck to discussing subject pronouns. An interesting change is going on concerning object pronouns.
The standard used to be that sin
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Someone asked:
[nq:1]Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
Yes: Latin prefers to put the first person first: ego et tu 'I and you', not tu et ego 'you and I'. Of course, in contexts other than linguistic investigation, you'd express the elements of the phrase in the right order for the language & register into which you're translating.
[nq:1]Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
Yes: Latin prefers to put the first person first: ego et tu 'I and you', not tu et ego 'you and I'. Of course, in contexts other than linguistic investigation, you'd express the elements of the phrase in the right order for the language & register into which you're translating.
00
[nq:2]Anyway... When you mix a pronoun with a noun, what ... Tom", or "Tom and I" instead of "I and Tom"?[/nq]
[nq:1]A lot of people say "me and Tom." And they usually do it when they should be saying "Tom and I."[/nq]
Between Tom and I, which of us is more grammariffic?
[nq:1]"me and my brother" "Me and Julio, blah blah schoolyard." I think its a matter of "I and Tom went to the store
[nq:1]A lot of people say "me and Tom." And they usually do it when they should be saying "Tom and I."[/nq]
Between Tom and I, which of us is more grammariffic?
[nq:1]"me and my brother" "Me and Julio, blah blah schoolyard." I think its a matter of "I and Tom went to the store
00
[nq:1]Okay, this is a question that must have been asked to death, but I haven't found anything on it in ... the rules come from, whendid they arise, and what was their rationale? Are other languages particular about pronoun order?[/nq]
In English, it seems to have its origin in notions of courtesy: not mentioning oneself before another, like letting somebody else through the door first. Other
In English, it seems to have its origin in notions of courtesy: not mentioning oneself before another, like letting somebody else through the door first. Other
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[nq:2]Anyway... When you mix a pronoun with a noun, what ... Tom", or "Tom and I" instead of "I and Tom"?[/nq]
[nq:1]A lot of people say "me and Tom." And they usually do it when they should be saying "Tom and I." "me and my brother" "Me and Julio, blah blah schoolyard."[/nq]
"See you, me and Julio blah blah schoolyard"
Or
"See you, me, and Julio blah blah schoolyard"
[nq:1]A lot of people say "me and Tom." And they usually do it when they should be saying "Tom and I." "me and my brother" "Me and Julio, blah blah schoolyard."[/nq]
"See you, me and Julio blah blah schoolyard"
Or
"See you, me, and Julio blah blah schoolyard"
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