Present perfect / past perfect

Question

Dear teachers,A key to an exercise on tenses gives for sentence #13 a present perfect or a past perfect tense. It is something I do not agree with because of the reporting verb "He said" at the beginning of the sentence. I think that only the past perfect can be used, even if the situation can still be true in the present time. Am I wrong?When Adams told the station guard about this, the poor man turned pale. He said that no steam train 13) has/had passed (pass) through that station for years, and that the last one 14) had crashed (crash), killing everyone on board.Thank you for your help.Hela

Fivejedjon · Accepted Answer

Are you not happy with the responses you received here - http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/236978-present-perfect-or-past-perfect%20?

CalifJim · Answer

HelaHe said that no steam train 13) has/had passed (pass) through that station for years, and that the last one 14) had crashed (crash), killing everyone on board.

I would say 'had passed', but the past perfect time frame having been established, I would probably use only 'crashed' in the second clause, though 'had crashed' is also fine.

'has' says that the absence of steam trains lasts up to the time the sentence (He said that no ...) is uttered by the reporting speaker, which could be years after the time of the absence of steam trains, so that doesn't seem right to me.

'had' says that the absence of steam trains lasts up to the time "he" spoke, saying that no such trains had passed through there. The reporter can't know what happened regarding train traffic after "he" made his claim.

HelaI think that only the past perfect can be used, even if the situation can still be true in the present time.

Yes, that's right if you're thinking it through as I have done above.

CJ

Fivejedjon · Answer

CalifJim'has' says that the absence of steam trains lasts up to the time the sentence (He said that no ...) is uttered by the reporting speaker, which could be years after the time of the absence of steam trains, so that doesn't seem right to me.

As was noted in the other thread, If the wider context makes it clear that it is still possible, at the time of reporting, to say 'No train has passed through this station for years', then backshifting is possible, but not essential in (13).

CalifJim · Answer

fivejedjonAs was noted ... If the wider context ...

With enough "if"s you can put Paris in a bottle.

(The link didn't work for me, by the way.)

There's no reason to consider the reporter's time frame. As I see it, using 'has' instead of 'had' adds more information than was given in the original statement being reported — information in the reporter's scope of knowledge but not in the original speaker's scope of knowledge.

Last Saturday, Jack says, "It hasn't rained in weeks here."
Next Thursday, Jane says, "Jack says it hasn't rained in weeks there."
To say that Jane has to know that it hasn't rained since Saturday either, something Jack could not have known on that Saturday. That's why I would advise Jane, in the general case, to use "hadn't rained".

CJ

Mister Micawber · Answer

CalifJim(The link didn't work for me, by the way.)

Link fixed. My bill will be in the mail.

Fivejedjon · Answer

CalifJimLast Saturday, Jack says, "It hasn't rained in weeks here."Next Thursday, Jane says, "Jack says it hasn't rained in weeks there."To say that Jane has to know that it hasn't rained since Saturday either, something Jack could not have known on that Saturday. That's why I would advise Jane, in the general case, to use "hadn't rained".

My point is that the tense depends on the reporter's knowledge of the situation. As I have said before when we have discussed this, backshifting is (almost) always correct, and is the safest bet for learners . However, if the reporter knows that the situation reported is still valid, then non-backshifting is possible. It is unreasonable to say that something is incorrect if, in many context,s it is not.

Thus:

1. My father said, "I am moving to Scotland next year".
2. My mother said, "I am moving to Scotland next year".

1a. My father said that he is/was moving to Scotland next year.
2a. My mother said that she is/was moving to Scotland next year.

I, 5jj, know that backshifting is essential in 1a, because my father is no longer alive, and that backshifting is optional in 2a, because my mother is still alive - as far as she is concerned, she is moving to Scotland next year. Students lack this knowledge, and cannot be expected to know that backshifting is essential in 1a. The exercise is unreasonable. It would be reasonable only if presented as something like:

3. My father said, just before he died, "I am moving to Scotland next year".
4. When he retired two years ago, my father said , "I am moving to Scotland next year".

In 3 and 4, backshifting is now obligatory, as is the change from 'next year' to' the following year. We should not penalise students if we give them insufficient information,

Hela · Answer

But isn't it wrong to say "My mother said she was moving to Scotland next year"?
Shouldn't it be either "My mother said she is moving... next year" or "was moving... the following year"?

Fivejedjon · Answer

HelaQuoteBut isn't it wrong to say "My mother said she was moving to Scotland next year"?

No.

Hela · Answer

I find it strange to backshift the auxiliary verb but not the adverb. Why is this possible?

Fivejedjon · Answer

Possibly because backshifting of tenses of verbs is more common than non-backshifting, except with universal/general truths - and even with these, backshifting is quite common. It is not so common with adverbial time expressions, perhaps because we have to change more than a single word (e.g., tomorrow/the following day, last week/the previous week). This does not come so naturally to many native speakers as backshifting tenses.

I am sure that some people would insist on backshifting the adverbials. This is certainly correct. I simply believe that it is not essential, especially in speech. Back shifting is far more likely in writing because the validity of the time expression is likely to have changed by the time the reader sees the words. The careful writer will have this in mind.

If you are worried about doing the right thing, the remember that backshifting, of tense or adverbial, is (almost) never wrong.

Present perfect / past perfect

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