Present Perfect and New Information

Question

Hi again all,Several days ago I had a problem with present perfect tense and thanks to the help of the users of this site, especially CalifJim, I managed to understand the matter. Firstly thanks everyone a lot.Now I am interested in the present perfect and its usage of giving new information. Firstly I will ask a little then regarding to the answers I will open it up a bit more.Again books from Cambridge University (in Use series) say "We use the present perfect tense to give new information. But if we continue to talk about it we normally use the past simple"There are examples in the book, I will show one of them but I want to ask a question firstly.If I use the present perfect tense to tell a recent event does it have to have a result in present?Now the example from the Advanced Grammar in Use:(A woman is telling news)"A teacher from Oslo has become the first woman to cross Antarctic alone. It took her 42 days..."Now what is the result in the present from this sentence? Why is not it like "...from Oslo became the first woman..."?I will ask more but for now don't want to make it longer as it is already quite long.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

White_StormIf I use the present perfect tense to tell a recent event does it have to have a result in present?

A 'result'? No. It just relates in some way to the present condition.

White_Storm"A teacher from Oslo has become the first woman to cross Antarctic alone. It took her 42 days..."Now what is the result in the present from this sentence?

It states a life experience. See also this very recent post, for instance:
http://www.EnglishForward.com/English/HaveBeenAbleToOrWasAbleTo/bczdvq/post.htm#sc1612455

CalifJim · Answer

White_StormI am interested in the present perfect and its usage of giving new information.

You are referring to what I sometimes call "the journalist's present perfect". It's often used to announce recent news.

Congress has finally passed into law the long-awaited bill which will make every citizen rich.
Scientists have invented a new chemical compound guaranteed to extend human life by 100 years.
An asteroid on a direct path to crash into earth next Tuesday has been discovered by astronomers in Chile.

The same kind of present perfect can also be used for more everyday news.

William and Liz have decided to get married.

White_StormIf I use the present perfect tense to tell a recent event does it have to have a result in present?

I would not put it like that. No. The event may well have a result in the present, or even the future, but that's not directly related to the choice of the present perfect.

CJ

White_Storm · Answer

Hi all,   You understood exactly what I referred. We can call it "the journalist's present perfect"   CJ, you say it doesn't have to have a result, at least I understand this from your saying of  "that's not directly related to the choice of the present perfect."  I think your above examples are focusing on the result (a new law is being talked, there is a new chemical, there is an asteroid which can hit the world, William and Liz are planning to married etc.) Could you give me an example which doesn't focus on the result? "Three people has been killed by robbers." "An UFO has been seen from Cape Town"   These can be what I want. They are focusing on the event itself. But I don't know if it is suitable to use present perfect tense in examples above.  In addition what is the choice of the present perfect related to when talking about "the journalist's present perfect."? How do we decide to use present perfect?

CalifJim · Answer

White_StormI think your above examples are focusing on the result

You can look at any event in terms of the result it has, so in my opinion it's not really useful to talk in terms of results.

Suppose I say, "A new law has been passed". Suppose I say, "A new law was passed". However you conceive of these, whether you believe they involve a result or do not involve a result, you are still faced with the fact that both equally talk about a result or both equally do not talk about a result. That being true, the idea of results does not help at all in making the decision between using the present perfect or using some other tense. How can we possibly argue intelligently and coherently that "A new law has been passed" talks about a result, but "A new law was passed" does not talk about a result? It's impossible. Therefore, in my opinion, results have nothing to do with the choice of tense.

White_Storm"Three people have been killed by robbers." "An UFO has been seen from Cape Town"

The present perfect is fine in these sentences.

White_StormIn addition what is the choice of the present perfect related to when talking about "the journalist's present perfect."? How do we decide to use present perfect?

I thought that was already made clear by your quote from the grammar book. The present perfect is used to announce recent news. So -- How do we decide to use the present perfect? -- If we want to announce recent news, we can use the present perfect. (There are other reasons to use the present perfect, but this is one of them.)

CJ

White_Storm · Answer

Firstly thanks for your answer.

I understand the other uses of the present perfect tense more or less but have slight confusion about this one. I want to expand my thoughts with some more questions:

1) My books say we use the past simple if we continue to talk about the subject. Is this always true? For example:

Let us say my housemate and I are talking about the problems of the building

A: We should have the elevator repaired.
B: I have spoken with the neighbours and we have had it repaired.

Is it a wrong usage? I have spoken (I am giving a new information.) and we have had it repaired (I want to express the elevator works now.). It sounds good to me. What do you think?

Or in this scenario:

A: How is the work going?
B: I have had an argument with my boss and I have left the company.

Is it OK? Can the first present perfect be counted as giving news?

2) I wonder what are news and what are not.

a) Can the present perfect still be used if the situation has changed?

A: Hi John, the police have arrested your neighbour but then have released her.

Can the first present perfect be counted as giving news again as the situation has changed?

b) And lastly these scenarios:

After I watched a football match I meet with a friend.
A: Well. We have no more to talk about the trip plan. Let's talk about the match
B: Rooney has scored twice.

OR

A: Well. We have no more to talk about the trip plan. Let's talk about the match
B: It has been delayed because of the weather.

I am not a native speaker but the first one sounds a little bad to me. What do you think? Can we define exactly what is giving news and what is not?

CalifJim · Answer

White_Storm1) My books say we use the past simple if we continue to talk about the subject. Is this always true?

No. Much of what you see in books are guidelines, not rules.

White_StormB: I have spoken with the neighbours and we have had it repaired.Is it a wrong usage?

No. It's not wrong.

White_StormB: I have had an argument with my boss and I have left the company.Is it OK? Can the first present perfect be counted as giving news?

It's OK, but it's news in response to an inquiry, not an announcement of news "out of the blue". I prefer the past here, at least for the first verb. I had an argument with my boss, and I've left the company. The formula here is "The argument happened. That's why I am now no longer employed by that company." Or, expressed more abstractly "This event happened. That explains my current state."

White_Storma) Can the present perfect still be used if the situation has changed?A: Hi John, the police have arrested your neighbour but then have released her.Can the first present perfect be counted as giving news again as the situation has changed?

I would use the same formula as in the previous example. The police arrested your neighbor, but they have released her. (That happened, but this is the current state.)

White_StormAfter I watched a football match I meet with a friend.A: Well. We have no more to talk about the trip plan. Let's talk about the matchB: Rooney has scored twice.

The match is clearly past history, separated from present concerns. Rooney scored twice.

White_StormA: Well. We have no more to talk about the trip plan. Let's talk about the matchB: It has been delayed because of the weather.

The match is clearly in the future, so a delay is of current relevance. It has been delayed ...is exactly right.
(By the way, the conversational situation you set up is not appropriate for this example. If the match was delayed, it didn't happen, as you say, "after ... a football match".)

White_StormCan we define exactly what is giving news and what is not?

No. Not exactly. Almost everything we say to another is news in some sense. There is no point in speaking if you are just repeating what everyone already knows! For the purposes of identifying "the journalist's present perfect" we have to define 'news' more narrowly. It's an unprefaced announcement of something fairly major. Ordinary conversational replies don't count. Trivialities don't count. And even with these guidelines, the determination of what is "news" is still somewhat fuzzy.

CJ

White_Storm · Answer

Thanks for your replies. So I think I can finally do my own judgement. I will be very happy if you check them:

1) The argument and leaving out dialogue wasn't good as it is an answer to an inquiry. However I think this one is true;

My friends will go to a concert but I will be working at this time. Then I'm calling my friend and saying: "I am coming too, I have had an argument with my boss and I have left the job."

2) I think if she has been released we cannot count the arrest as news since it is not up-to-date.

Like this one: John broke a record in running contest with 9.8 seconds. 2 hours later Sam broke the record with 9.7 seconds. We cannot give the news as "John has broken the record" as the news is not up-to-date.

3) I think if I watch a match and know my friend doesn't neither watch it nor know the result I can give him the news as: "Blues have won by 3-1"

Or one of our friends play in a team. I am going to watch his match in stadium. After the match I see another friend and giving him the news: "Daniel has scored twice."

Could you look at these examples and confirm or correct them?

Lastly if I ask to hear a new I think I shouldn't use present perfect tense. For example "Who has won?" or "Has Daniel scored?". Do you agree?

CalifJim · Answer

White_StormHowever I think this one is ~~true~~ correct

You must be Turkish. It is a common mistake among people from Turkey to use 'true' instead of 'correct'.

White_StormMy friends ~~will go~~ are going to a concert, but I will be working at this time. Then ~~I'm calling~~ I call my friend and ~~saying~~ say: "I am coming too. I have had an argument with my boss, and I (have) left the job."

That sounds all right to me. The second 'have' is optional.

White_StormLike this one: John broke a record in running contest with 9.8 seconds. 2 hours later Sam broke the record with 9.7 seconds. We cannot give the news as "John has broken the record" as the news is not up-to-date.

That sounds like a reasonable argument. I agree.

White_Storm3) I think if I watch a match and know my friend ~~doesn't~~ neither watches it nor knows the result, I can give him the news as: "The Blues have won by 3-1"

You can say that. Yes. But it's also OK to say "The Blues won by 3-1", and the simple past is probably more often used to report wins and losses of competitions.

White_StormOr one of our friends plays in a team. I am going to watch his match in the stadium. After the match I see another friend and give him the news: "Daniel has scored twice."

That's OK, but I would use the simple past.

White_StormLastly, if I ask to hear a piece of news, I think I shouldn't use present perfect tense. For example "Who has won?" or "Has Daniel scored?". Do you agree?

In this example I agree. You don't know who won or who scored. You have not been following the match at all. You are "asking cold", so you say, "Who won?", "Did Daniel score?"
______________

There are so many different aspects of situations that it's almost impossible to find a set of rules that explains all the different ways of choosing between the past and the present perfect.

CJ

White_Storm · Answer

CalifJimYou must be Turkish. It is a common mistake among people from Turkey to use 'true' instead of 'correct'.

And you must be a very wise man. It's true

I am surprised to see that someone can understand the nationality from a mistake. As we usually use one word in Turkish for the English words "right, true, correct" I usually mix things up, also have a problem with "nice and good". I think I will need to review these ones.

CalifJimThere are so many different aspects of situations that it's almost impossible to find a set of rules that explains all the different ways of choosing between the past and the present perfect.

I have been thinking about these about for 9 years. Even if they're not explaining all of the different situations I have made a list of rules. Your contributions added valuable things too.

I thank you very much for your help and patience. They really helped me a lot as I am very obsessed about rules.

Hope to see you in another topics.

CalifJim · Answer

White_StormI have been thinking about these about for 9 years.

WOW! That's a lot of thinking!

White_StormI thank you very much for your help and patience. They really helped me a lot as I am very obsessed about rules.

You're welcome.

CJ

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