Preposition or adverb? fronting a relative clause

Question

If you are up a proverbial creek, then you are upstream from the point where the water is flowing to.

If you are up a proverbial creek, then you are upstream from the point to where the water is flowing.

Question: Usually relative adverbs, such as where and when, are used instead of 'which + preposition.' Why in this case does 'where' require 'to' also?

Question: Can we place 'to' before 'where' like in my second sentence?

Thank you

Avangi · Accepted Answer

I think the problem is logical rather than grammatical. Absent eddy currents, the water is flowing at any and every given point in a stream.

"The point where the water is flowing" refers to any point where the water is not stagnant.

"At which" may be substituted. "Any point at which the water is [not] flowing."

"To which the water is flowing" has an entirely different meaning. "Point" is not particularly appropriate. It's probably flowing to the ****** ocean.

Actually, I'm uncomfortable using "where" in either of your sentences, mainly because of the word "point." I would always use "the point to which the water is flowing," or "the point which the water is flowing to."

Quo vadis? Where are you going? Whither goest thou? Not, What is the point [to] where you are going? or What is the point where you are going to?

You may switch from "the point" to "a point," and you remove the requirement that all the water in the stream flow to the same point.

You are upstream from a point toward which the water is flowing.

You are upstream from a point which the water is flowing toward.

The preposition "toward" is more appropriate because it doesn't mean that all the water must flow to the same point (which would be extremly unnatural).

What we would probably say is, "Upstream from the mouth of the creek."

I know this doesn't answer your question, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Best wishes, - A.

PS,

Usually relative adverbs, such as where and when, are used instead of 'which + preposition.

This observation leaves me scratching my head. Sorry.

English 1b3 · Answer

You make some interesting points, Avangi, which is much appreciated.

I agree towards works better than to for the reasons you gave.

AvangiUsually relative adverbs, such as where and when, are used instead of 'which + preposition.

This observation leaves me scratching my head. Sorry.

This is the house in which I lived/which I lived in.

This is the house where I lived.

I don't know the reason for which you left me/which you left me for.

I don't know the reason why you left me.

Preposition or adverb? fronting a relative clause

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