Preposing

Question

Hi,Preposing involves putting an element before the subject of a clause when its basic position would be after the verb.ex)A: She accepted this one.(basic version)B: This one she accepted.(preposed version)And it says in my grammar book that a preposed element serves as a link to preceding discourse, and must be closely related to information previousy introduced into the discourse.ex)A: Can I have a bagle?B: Sorry, we're out of bagles.A: How about a bran muffin?B: Bran muffin I can give you.Q1) So, in essence, what is the purpose of preposing? But a spate of smaller movies aimed at younger audiences bombed, including “Prom” from Walt Disney, “Glee: The 3-D Concert Movie” from 20th Century Fox, Warner’s “Sucker Punch,” Lionsgate’s “Conan the Barbarian” and “Your Highness,” a drug-oriented comedy from Universal.“As bad as the economy is for adults, it’s worse for teenagers,” said Phil Contrino, editor of BoxOffice.com, by way of an explanation.  “Because they have less disposable income and because they are more plugged in to audience reaction on Facebook and Twitter, the teenage audience is becoming picky,” (taken from an article in the New York Times)The underlined part is a type of preposing, according to Huddleston, and he says that even though "as bad as" looks like a comparison of equality, that is not how it is interpreted: the meaning of the underlined part is simply "though the economy is bad for adults".  So it has concessive meaning.Q2) Again, what is the purpose of preposing?  Why not just say, "Though the economy is bad for adults.."?I'd appreciate it if you could help me on this.

AlpheccaStars · Accepted Answer

jooneyA: How about a bran muffin?
B: Bran muffin I can give you.
Q1) So, in essence, what is the purpose of preposing?

In this case, it is for extra emphasis (contrast) on the direct object relative to the rest of the sentence.

A: How about a bran muffin?
B: A bran muffin I can give you, but not a bagle.

The bran muffin sounds as though it is a really good deal.

jooney“As bad as the economy is for adults, it’s worse for teenagers,”

Again, this is for emphasis; the emphasis falls on the contrasting clause which follows the introductory dependent clause.

As good as John is at shooting baskets, his teammate, Bill, is better.

CalifJim · Answer

A: Can I have a bagle?

B: Sorry, we're out of bagles.

A: How about a bran muffin?

B: Bran muffin I can give you.

Q1) So, in essence, what is the purpose of preposing?

Sometimes it's called "topicalization". Preposing topicalizes the preposed element, i.e., makes it the most important part of the message, draws attention to that element. In this example, it's used for contrast. Preposing in this example serves the same purpose as emphasizing an element by stressing it with the voice: I can give you a bran muffin.

A bagle, no. But a bran muffin? Yes; that's a different story.

It's a fairly common pattern: I can't do X, but Y I can do.

As bad as the economy is for adults, it’s worse for teenagers.

Q2) Again, what is the purpose of preposing? Why not just say, "Though the economy is bad for adults.."?

You could say any of these, with only very slight differences in meaning, if any:

Though the economy is bad for adults,

Although the economy is bad for adults,

Even though the economy is bad for adults,

Even if the economy is bad for adults,

In spite of the fact that the economy is bad for adults,

As bad as the economy is for adults,

If you think the economy is bad for adults,

So the question is really, why choose any of these and not another? They are all just different ways of expressing the same basic idea. The choice is the writer's. It's a matter of style, a matter of rhetoric. Having several ways of expressing a thought allows for more variety in writing.

In this particular example the rhetorical pattern is:

FACT (of a certain "intensity") (may well be so), (but that's nothing:) FACT (of greater "intensity").

As beautiful as she is, she is ugly compared to her sister.

As difficult as it is to drive in Paris, in Rome it's even worse.

The stylistic effect on a native speaker is that the patterns just above seem more elegantly phrased, while the patterns just below, which communicate the same thing, seem ordinary and stale.

She is beautiful, but her sister is more beautiful.

It is difficult to drive in Paris, but it is more difficult to drive in Rome.

The underlined part is a type of preposing, according to Huddleston

Yes, but it's a very rudimentary type of preposing, in that a subordinate clause comes first. It seems to me that, unless I'm missing Huddleston's point here, all of those examples I gave above are also examples of this ordinary kind of preposing, as are the following:

When we got there,

After they finished breakfast,

As soon as the meal was ready,

Since Susan had already bought the coat,

Despite his having won all that money,

CJ

Jooney · Answer

Hi, Astars.

Thank you very much for your answers.

I have a couple more questions.

Q1) I notice that the elements that are being compared to the preposed elements are in comparative forms("worse" in my example, "better" in your example) Does it always have to be that way?

Q2) Huddleston notes that "with concessive as some speakers(meaning grammatical in some dialects only) have a preposed predicative adjective modified by the adverb as". I'm not sure what exactly he means by this. Does he mean the addition of the first "as" is a regional dialect? Could you explain?

Jooney · Answer

Hi, CJ.

Thank you so much for your answers. You made the reply while I was writing another post, so I didn't see your answers. I'll read your answers thoroughly and reply back to you if I have any questions. Thank you.

AlpheccaStars · Answer

CalifJimIt seems to me that, unless I'm missing Huddleston's point here, all of those examples I gave above are also examples of this ordinary kind of preposing, as are the following:
When we got there,
After they finished breakfast,
As soon as the meal was ready,
Since Susan had already bought the coat,

There are some subordinate clauses whose position must come before the main clause, so it doesn't make sense to say that the clause is preposed:

As bad as the economy is for adults, it’s worse for teenagers.

X It’s worse for teenagers as bad as the economy is for adults.

Others can be moved, and since there is no difference in meaning or emphasis (to me), I don't see how preposing could apply:

After they finished breakfast, they went to school.

They went to school after they finished breakfast.

They sat down to eat as soon as the meal was ready.

As soon as the meal was ready, they sat down to eat.

There must be some term of grammar which differentiates these (either the clause or its introductory adverb.).

CalifJim · Answer

Jooney wrote:

“As bad as the economy is for adults, it’s worse for teenagers,” ...

The underlined part is a type of preposing, according to Huddleston,

_____________________

Alphecca Stars wrote:

There are some subordinate clauses whose position must come before the main clause, so it doesn't make sense to say that the clause is preposed:

As bad as the economy is for adults, it’s worse for teenagers.

X It’s worse for teenagers as bad as the economy is for adults.

___

So I take it you think Huddleston isn't making sense when he calls the underlined segment preposed.

Well, maybe not. I wonder what his full definition of 'preposing' is.

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

Others can be moved, and since there is no difference in meaning or emphasis (to me), I don't see how preposing could apply:

After they finished breakfast, they went to school. P

They went to school after they finished breakfast. N

They sat down to eat as soon as the meal was ready. N

As soon as the meal was ready, they sat down to eat. P

I think Huddleston is working within a theory which posits that subordinate clauses always come after the main clause by default, i.e., a theory which posits that this is the 'normal' (N) order.* Any movement of subordinates to the beginning is then called preposing (P). I have no idea whether he claims that preposing has any effect on meaning, though it clearly does have at least a small effect in some cases.

CJ

*But that said, I don't know how he would explain your counterexample, though he would probably call it a case of "Obligatory Preposing".

It’s worse for teenagers as bad as the economy is for adults.

Jooney · Answer

I have to appogize to both of you for causing confusion here.

In the original example, the preposed element is not the whole subordinate clause, but the predicative adjective modified by the adverb as.

As bad as the economy is ___for adults, it's worse for teenagers.

"With concessive 'as' some speakers have a preposed predicative adjective modified by the adverb as."

And he basically gives two types of preposing.

<complement preposing>

"Complement preposing is a construction in which a complement whose basic position is internal to the VP occurs in front position, preceding the nucleus of the clause."

ex1) Most of it she had written____himself.

ex2) Anything you don't eat put____back in the fridge.

ex3) It appears that from one of them he had borrowed several hundred dollars___.

ex4) The Phiadelphia Fish & Co. is grilling fresh seafood so good the competition is broiling mad. Casual and affordable they are. Expensive they are not.

<adjunct preposing>

ex1) In New York there is always something to do.

ex2) When I was at school I wasn't allowed to watch TV.

"Preposing adjucts occures relatively freely." "The construction(complemet preposing) is subject to pragmatic constraints on familiarity status that do not apply with initial adjucts.

A: In New York there is always something to do.

B: #In a basket I put your clothes.

#semantically or pragmatically anomalous.

"While "A" could perfectly well occur as the opening sentence in a discourse, "B" could not: it requires a context that motivates the preposing."

I'm really sorry to have wasted your time.

Jooney · Answer

As bad as the economy is ___for adults, it's worse for teenagers.

"With concessive 'as' some speakers have a preposed predicative adjective modified by the adverb as."

I'm still not sure what exactily he means by this. He adds, "'As bad as' here looks like a comparison of equality(such as we have in, for example, It was as bad as expected), but that is not how it is interpreted: the meaning of the PP is simply 'though the economy is bad'."

CalifJim · Answer

In the original example, the preposed element is not the whole subordinate clause, but the predicative adjective modified by the adverb as.

As bad as the economy is ___for adults, it's worse for teenagers.

Interesting. I was just about to write a post asking if we had got the wrong end of the stick, and that maybe the preposed element was not the subordinate clause itself, but just 'bad'. Well, at least that mystery is sorted out.

CJ

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