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Which is correct: John and Jane's &lt;insert noun&gt; or John's and Jane's &lt;insert noun&gt;?

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

John and Jane's <insert noun> = a commonly held possession: John and Jane's house is nice.
John's and Jane's <insert noun> = two separate possessions: John's and Jane's textbooks are both new.

Fivejedjon · Answer

Mister MicawberJohn and Jane's = a commonly held possession: John and Jane's house is nice.John's and Jane's = two separate possessions: John's and Jane's textbooks are both new.

I agree, but not everybody observes this practice. I checked in both COCA and BNC and found several examples of what appeared to be fairly-arbitrary (non-)uses of the first apostrophe.

Mister Micawber · Answer

fivejedjonnot everybody observes this practice. I checked in both COCA and BNC and found several examples of what appeared to be fairly-arbitrary (non-)uses of the first apostrophe.

So what do we do? And do we do it with everything we find in reputable corpora?

Fivejedjon · Answer

Mister MicawberSo what do we do?

We do as you did - give the correct response. I was anticipating a '..but I found these on the internet, so did you give me the right response?' post. Perhaps I should have mentioned that in my post.

I think that this is one of those situations where careful writers do as you suggested, but their number appears to be shrinking. The time may come, and it may not be long, when your advice may be considered pedantic. At present, it's not, in my opinion. So, in such situations, we give the 'correct' response, but warn people that not all native speakers do what we recommend.

Mister MicawberAnd do we do it with everything we find in reputable corpora?

If there are enough examples in the corpora of a 'rule' not being followed, then I think we need to point this out. If the number of rule-breakers gets high, then we need to ask ourselves if the rule is till relevant.

Just my personal opinion.

Mister Micawber · Answer

fivejedjonJust my personal opinion

Oh, mine, too. But the caveat that I have mentioned before (dozens of times by now no doubt) is that many of our members are taking language proficiency examinations, which both lag behind and are generally more pedantic than real use. They get points off (Cambridge excepted) for things that we call common and natural. That bothers me, when following a 'rule' can help them pass while ignoring it may affect their immediate future.

Fivejedjon · Answer

Mister MicawberBut the caveat that I have mentioned before (dozens of times by now no doubt) is that many of our members are taking language proficiency examinations, which both lag behind and are generally more pedantic than real use. They get points off (Cambridge excepted) for things that we call common and natural. That bothers me, when following a 'rule' can help them pass while ignoring it may affect their immediate future.

I agree that this is worrying, but feel quite strongly that learners should know the language that is accepted by most native speakers today, not the language that a minority considered correct thirty or more years ago, Fortunately for teachers of British English, Trinity , Cambridge and other British examining boards are rather more enlightened than universities and examining boards in some non-English-speaking countries.

It seems to me that in some ways American English is more conservative than British English, especially in the written language. American usage may require , for example, the use of the subjunctive in situations where we Brits have largely abandoned it, or attach more importance to the observance of rules of punctuation than we do. That's fine. If these things are important in AmE, then American teachers should teach them and American examining boards should penalise non-observance of the rules.

However, in an internationally visited forum such as this, we American, Australian, British, Canadian, Irish, New Zealand, etc native speakers should, I believe do our best in our responses to reflect the language used by reasonably well-educated native speakers in our own countries - unless, of course, the question is about informal language, slang or jargon. If we have knowledge of other varieties, we can present that. What we should not do, I believe, is present as correct (because it may help a person pass an examination in Asia) something that was regarded as correct thirty years ago but is now rarely used by the majority of native speakers.. and may even sound wrong to many speakers. That is an approach up with which I will not put.

I'll stop ther.e I have already rambled on for too long.

Mister Micawber · Answer

fivejedjonIt seems to me that in some ways American English is more conservative than British English, especially in the written language.

Yes, I've noticed that recently, too. When I came here, I was a terrible, parochial pedant. I thought I'd expanded my horizons, but there seems to be a lot more waiting over the hill.

Fivejedjon · Answer

Mister Micawber When I came here, I was a terrible, parochial pedant. I thought I'd expanded my horizons, but there seems to be a lot more waiting over the hill.

I have learnt to be less intolerant of what I used to consider pedantry. If a usage is appropriate for speakers of one variety, then it is not appropriate for this speaker of another variety to dismiss it.

The problem for teachers is that of a possible need to teach clearly outdated prescriptive rules to help learners pass examinations in their own countries. My solution, when I am working in countries where university English departments and examination boards seem to believe that English was set in stone in about 1950, is to explain to learners that usage X is acceptable in standard British English, but usage Y is required by those who set examinations in their own country. When I know of differences between British and American English, I point these out. That's the best I can do.

In forums such as this, we who respond can explain what is acceptable in our variety of English. Learners have to decide for themselves what to do then.

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