PIP and PINP

Question

PIPs pronounce neither "pin" nor "pen" as /pIn/ or /pEn/, instead using a vowel between the two. I do not know if the IPA has recognized the existence of this vowel, but it certainly exists. PIPs cannot hear a difference between I and E, either, no matter how carefully a PINP enunciates.
This affects all the minimal pairs: tin/ten, bin/ben, pit/pet, and so forth.
What is the region where PIP is found? Lately, I've been seeing it called "typical of Midland and Southern." If "Midland" means the Midwest, not so! As for Southern, well, I first encountered PIP in Texas, which has one accent vaguely related to Southern; the other four are more Western or Ozarkian. PIP covers much (but not all) of Texas. I've heard there's a big swath of PIP, and ISTR that the west end is pretty far west in Texas, but I don't know where it goes from there. I do not believe that it is congruent with any accent areas, though, but rather overlies parts of several.
Cece

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]PIPs pronounce neither "pin" nor "pen" as /pIn/ or /pEn/, instead using a vowel between the two.[/nq]
I'm not sure that's always true, if you mean a vowel between (I) and (E). Surely some PIPs just use (I), say, or at least it's conceivable (to me at least).
[nq:1]I do not know if the IPA has recognized the existence of this vowel, but it certainly exists. PIPs cannot ... either, no matter how carefully a PINP enunciates. This affects all the minimal pairs: tin/ten, bin/ben, pit/pet, and so forth.[/nq]
Whoa, "pit/pet"? The PIP/PINP divide only applies to /I/ and /E/ before nasals. I've never heard of a similar merger (in the US) before non-nasals. New Zealand might be a whole nother kettle of lutefisk.
[nq:1]What is the region where PIP is found? Lately, I've been seeing it called "typical of Midland and Southern." If "Midland" means the Midwest, not so![/nq]
"Midland" is a term that was invented by Americodialectologists. It overlaps with part of what we call the "Midwest" (however you want to define that, and as we all know there's not much agreement there). The reason for the name "Midland" is that the heart of the region (ignore anything west of the Rockies) is the middle part of the country in a sort of horizontal sense.
Coop, an Indianapolitan, may well be a PIP. Indianapolis is an example of a Midwestern place that is also dialectally in the Midland. Another example is Central Illinois, the place of Minneapolis Ray Wise's upbringing; still another and different example is Southern Illinois, that region which is known as "Egypt" or "Little Egypt". Raymond, are you a PIP?
[nq:1]As for Southern, well, I first encountered PIP in Texas, which has one accent vaguely related to Southern; the other ... there. I do not believe that it is congruent with any accent areas, though, but rather overlies parts of several.[/nq]
Well, for Freck's sake, the West of this country is sort of a dialectal mishmosh, though FWIU Western AmE has been more influenced by Midland dialects than by any other. FWIW, native sons and daughters in California often sound to me like they have quasi-Southern twangs (though not drawls); same goes for people in Western Pennsylvania though (perhaps the proto-Western dialect or subdialect). California seems to have a prestige thing going on rather like New York city, where the bulk of the population have twangy accents and the prestige elite do not.

The late Mister Fred Rogers, a Western Pennsylvanian, always sounded Southern to me.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"Midland" is a term that was invented by Americodialectologists.[/nq]
Let's see .. one who studies the "lectology" of
"Americodia"? Where is "Americodia"? This one took me all of five seconds to figure out! Is there someone who is actually in the habit of using this "word"?

Mike Hardy

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]What is the region where PIP is found? Lately, I've been seeing it called "typical of Midland and Southern." If ... there. I do not believe that it is congruent with any accent areas, though, but rather overlies parts of several.[/nq]
You might want to familiarize yourself with William Labov's "Phonological Atlas of North America" site:
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/home.html
This includes maps indicating the region that dialectologists call the Midland (further subdivided into North Midland and South Midland), as well as a map showing the boundaries of the pin/pen merger:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/maps/Map3.html

You're right to note that the pin/pen merger is not one that defines a single distinct dialect region. (Major dialect regions are usually defined by a confluence of different features, not a single one.) Texas is indeed almost entirely within the limits of the merger. Most of the South Midland is also PIP, but there are notable exceptions (e.g., southern Ohio, which otherwise shares "South Midland" features).

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Whoa, "pit/pet"? The PIP/PINP divide only applies to /I/ and /E/before nasals. I've never heard of a similar merger (in the US) before non-nasals. New Zealand might be a whole nother kettle of lutefisk.[/nq]
NZ "pet" sounds like "pit", to me anyway, but I think they do something weird with "pit" as well, so there's no merger. The merger they do have is "air"/"ear".
[nq:2]What is the region where PIP is found? Lately, I've been seeingit called "typical of Midland and Southern." If "Midland" means the Midwest, not so![/nq]
[nq:1]"Midland" is a term that was invented by Americodialectologists. It overlaps with part of what we call the "Midwest" (however ... of the region(ignore anything west of the Rockies) is the middle part of the country in asort of horizontal sense.[/nq]
And of course we in Britain have "the Midlands" (plural). I think this is also used for the central area of Ireland.

Jonathan

Usenet · Answer

Folks who grew up around here (Houston) cannot hear the difference between /I/ and /E/ when they are pronounced alone. They can see that my lips are in a different position, but the two vowels sound exactly the same to them. And they say the vowels identically, neither /I/ nor /E/.
I grew up in Indianapolis, and spent a year of that time with people from Tell City, Corydon, and Scottsburg. PINP all the way.

In Houston, and in sales territories answerable to Houston, PIP. Over the phone: help! I heard about a speech pathologist checking all the children in a school in west Texas, Midland IIRC, who was amazed that all the children had the same speech defect, until someone else, who had lived all over the country, explained that it was accent.

Cece

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In our last episode,
(Email Removed), the lovely and talented Cece
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
[nq:1]Folks who grew up around here (Houston) cannot hear the difference between /I/ and /E/ when they are pronounced alone. ... had the same speech defect, until someone else, who had lived all over the country, explained that it was accent.[/nq]
Here is an isogloss of PIP
The map itself:

Lars Eighner ~~finger for geek code~~ (Email Removed) http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "The very essence of the creative is its novelty, and hence we have no standard by which to judge it." Carl R. Rogers, On Becoming a Person

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[nq:2]I'm not sure that's always true, if you mean a ... New Zealand might be a whole nother kettle of lutefisk.[/nq]
[nq:1]Folks who grew up around here (Houston) cannot hear the difference between /I/ and /E/ when they are pronounced alone. ... but the two vowels sound exactly the same to them. And they say the vowels identically, neither /I/ nor /E/.[/nq]
To repeat Areff's question, are you sure the /I/~/E/ merger also happens before non-nasals? AIUI, the vowels of, say, "pit" and "pet" remain distinct throughout the South (including the Houston region), though they are affected by the so-called "Southern Shift". In the Southern Shift, short front vowels become more "tense" (raised, fronted, lengthened, sometimes diphthongized), so "pit" might sound more like (pi@t) and "pet" more like (pe@t). See Labov's descriptions here:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/NationalMap/NationalMap.html#Heading10 http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/Atlas chapters/Ch18/Ch18.html

Labov's data on Houstonians only notes the merger before nasals:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/tsdata/TS533.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/tsdata/TS534.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/tsdata/TS535.html http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono atlas/tsdata/TS536.html

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[nq:2]I'm not sure that's always true, if you mean a ... as "Egypt" or "Little Egypt". Raymond, are you a PIP?[/nq]
No, and I don't associate it with the Midwest at all.
[nq:2]Well, for Freck's sake, the West of this country is ... Fred Rogers, a Western Pennsylvanian, always sounded Southern to me.[/nq]
[nq:1]Folks who grew up around here (Houston) cannot hear the difference between /I/ and /E/ when they are pronounced alone. ... the same speech defect, until someone else, who had lived all over the country, explained that it was accent. Cece[/nq]
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Folks who grew up around here (Houston) cannot hear the difference between /I/ and /E/ when they are pronounced alone. ... the same speech defect, until someone else, who had lived all over the country, explained that it was accent. Cece[/nq]
I was raised in Columbus, IN (approx. 50 miles south of Indy), and have been a PIP person all my life. I only noticed the difference relatively recently (after getting interested in phonemes). I, however, was raised in a family dominated by immigrants from south-central Kentucky. Many of my native Hoosier friends are PINP, but I've definately noticed a lot of PIP here in Indianapolis now.
In an effort to try to distinguish between the two sounds, and to pronounce them differently myself, I've noticed that I often over-"correct" myself by pronouncing words that should be /I/ with an /E/.
J.G.B.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]PIPs pronounce neither "pin" nor "pen" as /pIn/ or /pEn/, instead using a vowel between the two. I do not ... either, no matter how carefully a PINP enunciates. This affects all the minimal pairs: tin/ten, bin/ben, pit/pet, and so forth.[/nq]
Be careful with your slashes. Do you really mean to say that the vowel in "pin" and "pen" is phonemically different from the vowels in "pit" and "pet"? My understanding was that such speakers tended to consider it to be /I/.
Wait a minute, you said that it affects "pit" and "pet" as well. Are you sure? This merger is traditionally described as only occurring before nasals.
If it's true that in all contexts /I/ and /E/ are merged, then I'm not sure what sense it makes to say that the dialect has neither. It seems rather pointless to insist on using a phoneme different from the one used in describing other dialects for at least one of the two classes.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >I like giving talks to industry,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >because one of the things that I'vePalo Alto, CA 94304 >found is that you really can't

PIP and PINP

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