Pie?

Question

'You see things like rain and pie...'Why the pie is zero-article and non-plural? What does this pie mean apart from pies?

Clive · Accepted Answer

In simple terms, it means the substance that pies consist of.

Thus, we can say
eg Tom is a messy eater. He always leaves pie on the floor beneath his chair.

Sijay · Answer

Many (if not all) foods that don't have a predetermined serving size can be phrased as a mass noun, even if at some level there are units (dishes) that can be counted.

We baked two casseroles; everyone helped themselves to some casserole.
Jane had bought two pies, so we all had pie for dessert.

On the other hand, some foods by their very nature are units:

I brought cookies to work, and everyone had some cookies.
Please pass the peas, but serve yourself peas too if you like.

GPY · Answer

onizo'You see things like rain and pie...'

I am curious about the situation in which you see things like rain and pie. Can you illuminate?

Sijay · Answer

I had to dig in Google. Is it from Dr. Seuss?

Onizo · Answer

Yes. It is from Dr. Seuss. And today somewhat I came across this thinking that why just "pizza" but always "pancakes" or "a pancake", when they look similar in their nature?

And am I describing correctly to call "a pancake" for one being made on a frying pan unbroken, then "pancakes" for torn ones on a plate by a fork?

Thank you

CalifJim · Answer

onizo"a pancake" ... one being made on a frying pan unbroken

"pancakes" ... more than one pancake (as described above)

"pancakes" has nothing to do with being torn.

CJ

Sijay · Answer

onizoI describing correctly to call "a pancake" for one being made on a frying pan unbroken, then "pancakes" for torn ones on a plate

You are half right.

When you make one in a pan, it is a unit: There is a pancake in the pan.
When you make several, they are plural unit: There are pancakes on the plate.
When you cut them, and put a bite on your fork, it is a mass: There is pancake on my fork.
If you eat them all, you can again refer to them as the original unit: I ate all the pancakes.

The same is true for other foods, like pizza:

You bake a pizza.
You may bake several pizzas.
You then may cut one into slices and eat some pizza.
If you eat it all, you have eaten a pizza.

Onizo · Answer

Thank you very much for the explanation.

I have heard very few in videos by some natives saying some oranges referring to slices of an orange, or some waffles for broken few pieces of waffle. So basically, what you saying as non countable, which is consistent through out many native's response in written forms, is why expressed by some verbally as countable? Are they simply undereducated?

Onizo · Answer

And there's one more thing: how about scrambled eggs and fried eggs; why are they plural compared to the theory above?

Sijay · Answer

onizoAre they simply undereducated?

Not at all. These phrasings are correct too, and in fact the same idea can be applied to my examples.

When you cut up the pizza you have baked, you can give your friend some pizza, or a piece of pizza (commonly called a slice of pizza). All three things refer to part of the original whole pizza. The difference is this:

With some pizza, the object in question is pizza—a mass or substance, which is not plural.

When you refer instead to the piece of pizza, the object is now the piece—a unit, which is singular or plural depending on whether there's one or more. Then of pizza is used to describe what kind of piece we mean.

You can indeed refer to a slice of orange, pieces of pie, bowls of soup, etc. By the way, none of these rules are restricted to food. It was just a good way to focus the conversation.

I hope this makes sense!

On a side note—in these forums we are often very strict with grammar, because we are trying to communicate rules. But spoken English is often very flexible and causal—so it's often better to assume that non-standard grammar is the result of a colloquialism, rather than lack of education. There are very well educated people out there who occasionally speak with very sloppy English, when it doesn't hurt anything to do so.

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