Pidgin English

Question

I have a chat with a younger friend and we mentioned the term "Pidgin English", which he is not familiar with, while I knew this term for decades. Now the question is, does the term no longer prevail? I guess so because globalization/internet helps people improve their English skills. I also rarely come across the term in magazine. But in the old days, I saw it several times. Wonder if it is the case?

Kevin from Hong Kong

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I have a chat with a younger friend and we mentioned the term "Pidgin English", which he is not familiar ... But in the old days, I saw it several times. Wonder if it is the case? Kevin from Hong Kong[/nq]
I would guess that you are correct about the effect of globalization/Internet.
I would also guess that P-E was an early effort of a dominated colonial people to quickly develop a functional spoken language with the people of the dominating colonial power. There was probably once a P-G (German) and P-F (French) spoken in those respective colonies, but English speakers wouldn't have noticed it.

Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I have a chat with a younger friend and we ... Wonder if it is the case? Kevin from Hong Kong[/nq]
[nq:1]I would guess that you are correct about the effect of globalization/Internet. I would also guess that P-E was an ... probably once a P-G (German) and P-F (French) spoken in those respective colonies, but English speakers wouldn't have noticed it.[/nq]
It did not need a colonial power to exist. Pidgin languages were developed where local people came into contact with traders from outside. The local people and the traders wanted to buy and sell things to one another. They needed to create a simple language for this purpose.
In many case these trading contacts developed later into colonial situations.
Some of the Pidgin Englishes developed into creoles (hybrid languages). For instance, New Guinea Pidgin, officially known as Tok Pisin, is one of the official languages of Papua New Guinea (PNG). PNG has hundreds of languages. Tok Pisin allows people from different places to speak to one another. It is the most used language in PNG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tok Pisin
Wikipedia has a list of Pidgin Englishes. Some of them might be technically classified as pidgins but would not normally be described that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin English

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Usenet · Answer

It seemed an odd question to me at first, but I suppose there is something to it.
[nq:2]I would also guess that P-E was an early effort ... spoken language with the people of the dominating colonial power.[/nq]
[nq:1]It did not need a colonial power to exist. Pidgin languages were developed where local people came into contact with ... many case these trading contacts developed later into colonial situations. Some of the Pidgin Englishes developed into creoles (hybrid languages).[/nq]
i.e. languages usually based on an outside "high language", usually the coloniser's, and local language(s), forming a relatively stable and complex idiom which is spoken by people as a first language. That would more or less be the definition of a creole.
Pidgins, on the other hand, are unstable, more basic additional languages acting as intermediaries between people's mutually unintelligible mother tongues.
I haven't looked into this, but one could probably argue that with classic colonisation and the "discovery of the world" as done by seafarers on the decline, the number of pidgins created and maintained is probably going down. Maybe mobility (of people and information) and the predominance of English as the international lingua franca make the creation of a Pidgin unnecessary, since contact, say between tourists and indigenous people, is shorter and less profound. "Two gin tonic" or "take picture?" does not make a pidgin yet.
What I've always wondered was whether one should consider non-European-based pidgins and creoles as such, say between two Southeast-Asian languages. The discussion only ever seems to evolve around the European (former) colonies and "the funny way people mispronounce our languages there," to put it a bit controversially.

Luca

"Paying taxes is like going to the zoo. Admission is 20 bucks. You can't walk in and say 'Here's 18.50. I don't like zebras.'" - Jon Stewart

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I would also guess that P-E was an early effort ... those respective colonies, but English speakers wouldn't have noticed it.[/nq]
[nq:1]It did not need a colonial power to exist. Pidgin languages were developed where local people came into contact with ... traders wanted to buy and sell things to one another. They needed to create a simple language for this purpose.[/nq]
Good points.

Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It did not need a colonial power to exist. Pidgin languages were developed where local people came into contact with ... allows people from different places to speak to one another. It is the most used language in PNG. Pisin[/nq]
I like to visit Tok Pisin
http://www.abc.net.au/ra/tokpisin/news/
Here's an item about Australia's concerns over security for cricketers in India:
"Australia foreign minista, Stephen Smith, bai igo long India long Monday blong holim ol toktok long plen blong security wok blong ol sporting events, em sampela ol tokwin i wok long kamap long ol terrorist i"

I seem to recollect PNG views Prince Philip as "longpela blong Misis Kwin"
John Dean
Oxford

Usenet · Answer

(snip)
[nq:1]Some of the Pidgin Englishes developed into creoles (hybrid languages). For instance, New Guinea Pidgin, officially known as Tok Pisin, ... allows people from different places to speak to one another. It is the most used language in PNG. Pisin[/nq]
When I was a trainee, at one time I lived next to an Australian surgeon who had worked in Papua New Guinea and spoke Tok Pisin fluently. It has a few of my favourite word in any language. Anything broken is "bagarap" (try saying it, and it's not considered vulgar). It's also quite polite to describe nonsense as "***". Also, Prince Charles's title is "Numbwun picanin blong Missis Kwin".

I shan't even try to spell-check this message, so apologies for any typos.
With best wishes,
Peter.

Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]It did not need a colonial power to exist. Pidgin ... It is the most used language in PNG. Pisin[/nq]
[nq:1]I like to visit Tok Pisin http://www.abc.net.au/ra/tokpisin/news/ Here's an item about Australia's concerns over security for cricketers in India: ... wok long kamap long ol terrorist i" I seem to recollect PNG views Prince Philip as "longpela blong Misis Kwin"[/nq]
I too recollect that.
From the Buck House website:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchAndCommonwealth/TheQueenandPapuaNewGuinea/QueenandPapuaNewGuinea.aspx

The Queen's Royal style and title in Papua New Guinea is Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of ***, Queen of Papua New Guinea and Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth.

Those "other Realms and Territories" include lesser places such as Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the UK.
Her Majesty is known in the pidgin language of Tok Pisin as 'Missis Kwin', and as 'Mama belong big family'.
As in other Commonwealth realms:
The Queen is Head of State in Papua New Guinea, and is represented by a Governor-General, who carries out the duties of Head of State.

However:
Unlike other Commonwealth realms, the Governor-General of Papua New Guinea is nominated by the country's Parliament, rather than by its Prime Minister, as is the convention elsewhere.

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Prince Charles's title is "Numbwun picanin blong Missis Kwin".[/nq]
He should have this written on his coat of arms, instead of the old "honi soit..."
Luca

"Paying taxes is like going to the zoo. Admission is 20 bucks. You can't walk in and say 'Here's 18.50. I don't like zebras.'" - Jon Stewart

Pidgin English

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