Past subjunctive

Question

Past subjunctive is used when we are referring to something hypothetic or unreal.

for example:

I wish I were taller. (past subjunctive, but the meaning is now.)

However, I do not understand the difference in meaning between sentences below.

1. "do you mind if I smoke?" well, I'd rather you didn't. (past subjunctive)

2. "do you mind if I smoke?" well, I'd rather you not. (present subjunctive)

Maybe, the present subjunctive mood used in 2nd sentence is due to the imperativeness, urgency and importance of the action. However, why is past subjunctive mood used in 1st sentence? Perhaps it is because the 1st sentence is expressing a wish, but this wish is probable, it is possible that my wish will come true, so it is not a hypothetical or improbable wish and past subjunctive mood should not be used in the sentence, right?

But I know the 1st sentence is correct, could you tell me the reason why it is still correct?

Hopefully, my long-haunting question could be solved today?

Thank you.

Cool Breeze · Accepted Answer

English grammars have been aritten by a host of native and non-native speakers, and there is variation in terminology. I am used to applying different terms from yours to the verbs in your sentences.

Anonymous1. "do you mind if I smoke?" well, I'd rather you didn't. (past subjunctive)

I call the verb form after would rather a preterite / preterit, not a subjunctive. Since English verbs have only a few forms, the preterite is identical in form (did) with the past tense and the past subjunctive. Why this particular verb form is used after would rather in this context is shrouded in history. Certain words, phrases and verb forms just have been used for centuries and they have become part and parcel of the English language.

English is particularly rich in such phrases and idioms, unlike French, for example, because there has never been a Language Academy that has tried to iron out any unwanted or seemingly ugly usage. In France, their academy did a great job of standardising French spelling centuries ago, but English spelling is anything but standardised. And now it's too late to do anything even if there were a will -- which there isn't!

Anonymous2. "do you mind if I smoke?" well, I'd rather you not. (present subjunctive)

Present subjunctive? Where? Which word? My analysis:

Do = present tense, indicative

mind = plain/bare infinitive (= infinitive without to)
smoke = present tense, indicative
would (I'd) = defective / modal auxiliary

There are no other vebs in the sentence.

CB

Anonymous · Answer

Cool BreezePresent subjunctive? Where? Which word? My analysis:
Do = present tense, indicative
mind = plain/bare infinitive (= infinitive without to)
smoke = present tense, indicative
would (I'd) = defective / modal auxiliary

Thank you so much for your information first.

The mood is negative present subjunctive in this sentence.

............. well, I'd rather you not smoke.

The "not" is in negative present subjunctive mood.

In the negative form, the present subjunctive does not take the word do:

			They insisted that we *not stay* behind.
			It is vital that children *not leave* the school grounds until their parents arrive. So, for the first sentence, there is no past subjunctive mood. Thank you, now I have learnt "preterite". Could you give me more examples about "preterite"?

Cool Breeze · Answer

This wayward buggy site offers me no Reply button in your last post, so can't quote text from it with the Quote button.

"The "not" is in negative present subjunctive mood."

If that's the way you see it, fine. Personally, I cannot consider an adverb to be a subjunctive at all. In my grammatical terminology only verbs can be in the subjunctive mood, but they can me made negative by placing not (an adverb) before them. Furthermore, I don't consider not smoke in your sentence grammatically correct English, but if you do, that is of course fine with me.

I would rather go there.
I would rather not go there.

I would rather you went there.
I would rather you didn't go there.

There are two subjects in the last two sentences and that's why the preterite is used - in my gramatical terminology, anyway.

You'll find preterite in any good online dictionary. Basically, it is the same as past tense, but as the past tense doesn't always refer to the past at all, some grammarians have begun to use this term, which has no reference to time.

CB

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you CB.

Thanks again.

Past subjunctive

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