Past Simple vs. Past Perfect

Question

Hello,I hesitate between Past Simple and Past Perfect for the last sentence of the following paragraph:«An hour and a quarter later the raiders arrived, as previously agreed, at the farmhouse; where they heard a final report on their intended victim. He had reached his farm over half an hour before, and the strange light had soon afterward shot once into the sky, but there were no lights in any visible windows. This [was always/had always been] the case of late.»I incline to the Past Perfect because the windows had already been black for some time when the raiders arrives, thereby making it "past before past". But what's your opinion?Thank you in advance,Anton

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

And a comma, not a semicolon, even though there are too many commas:

An hour and a quarter later the raiders arrived as previously agreed at the farmhouse, where they heard a final report on their intended victim. He had reached his farm over half an hour before, and the strange light had soon afterward shot once into the sky, but there were no lights in any visible windows. This had always been the case of late.

Ant_222 · Answer

Mister MicawberAnd a comma, not a semicolon, even though there are too many commas:An hour and a quarter later the raiders arrived as previously agreed at the farmhouse, where they heard a final report on their intended victim. He had reached his farm over half an hour before, and the strange light had soon afterward shot once into the sky, but there were no lights in any visible windows. This had always been the case of late.

Thanks for the reply.

The semicolon was an overlook on my side. As for the question itself, the last sentence refers to the lack of lights in the visible windows, not to the raiders' arrival. Will this note change your answer?

EDIT: Oh, and they arrived at the farmhouse, as was previously agreed, so your other correction is wrong.

EDIT: I mistook your emboldening of some letters in the first sentence for trying to show a connection of it with the last one. I retract my additional question.

Anton

Ant_222 · Answer

And now the question is, why did H.P. Lovecraft choose the Past Simple? For this is from his "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward"...

Anton

Mister Micawber · Answer

Well, for one thing, it was published in1927.

Ant_222 · Answer

Mister MicawberWell, for one thing, it was published in1927.

I don't think the rules for, and the usage of, tenses have changed since then.

Anton

Ant_222 · Answer

By the way, the novel was written in 1927 but first published in 1941.

Anton

Terryxpress · Answer

An hour and a quarter later the raiders arrived, as previously agreed, at the farmhouse; where they heard a final report on their intended victim. He had reached his farm over half an hour before, and the strange light had soon afterward shot once into the sky, but there were no lights in any visible windows. This was always the case of late.

The passage is primarily in the Simple Past. Think of the last two sentences as:

...but there were no lights showing. This was not unusual as - since quite recently - this was always the case.

If the Past Perfect were used, then how could it be 'always of late', and so, even now, when once again, as has become usual, there 'were no lights in any visible window'. The Past Perfect would place this as a completed past action prior to all the action so far in the Simple Past. The act of 'making sure no lights are visible' - started drawing the curtains, say - had begun further back in the pas,
...but the actual result of 'not showing of light in any window' now happens every night...and tonight 'was just the same as always'.

Ant_222 · Answer

TerryxpressThe passage is primarily in the Simple Past. Think of the last two sentences as:...but there were no lights showing. This was not unusual as - since quite recently - this was always the case.

I was taught that in such cases a perfect tense was required. For example:
1. We ~~are~~ have been friends since only recently.
2. We ~~were~~ had been friends since only recently.

I was thinking of that sentence this way:
"All the visible windows were black, and they ~~were~~ had been so for some time now."

In this case, the Perfect tense (Present or Past) doesn't indicate that the action has completed, but, rather, that it began prior to a certain moment (present or past) and was not yet complete at that very moment:
"When I went out it was raining heavily, and it had been all evening."

TerryxpressIf the Past Perfect were used, then how could it be 'always of late', and so, even now, when once again, as has become usual, there 'were no lights in any visible window'.

I understand the "always" as uninterruptedly, without exceptions. After a certain day, there was never a case when a light was seen.

Terryxpress...but the actual result of 'not showing of light in any window' now happens every night...and tonight 'was just the same as always'.

Yes — tonight it was just the same as it always had been (in the previous several nights)!

Anton

Terryxpress · Answer

"All the visible windows were black, and they ~~were~~ had been so for some time now."

About 10:30….; and at that hour there was … man had set out for his last night of unhallowed wizardry. … a parting look at Providence lying outspread under the early spring stars. …, the old town dreamed.
It is night, and light is not visible from the windows. But this does not mean that the windows are 'blacked out' 24/7, a opposed to after nightfall each evening.
We see the circumstances behind 'no visible light from the windows' differently. I note that the author is speaking about 'visible light' not being seen, and that this was quite the regular occurrence now. Why refer to 'no visible light' being the norm - implying evening, when lights would be on - rather than 'ever since he blacked out the windows recently''.

2. We ~~were~~ had been friends since only recently.

since: in the intervening period between (the time mentioned) and the time under consideration, typically the present
(2) is not grammatically correct. 'since' refers to an intervening period of time, from a point in the past, to some later point closer to NOW. This is covered by the Present Perfect, but not the Past Perfect.

Of this sentence you write:

In this case, the Perfect tense (Present or Past) doesn't indicate that the action has completed, but, rather, that it began prior to a certain moment (present or past) and was not yet complete at that very moment:
You lump Present Perfect Tense, which looks back from one moment in time, typically NOW, over a period of time beginning at some earlier time. Hence, it cannot be a completed action, and I did not say so.
Past Perfect Tense simply places one action/event as occurring earlier in time than another. It does not refer to a 'period of time'.
You give this sentence:
"When I went out it was raining heavily, and it had been all evening.".
You had to include the time phrase 'all evening' to indicate a period of time...because the Past Perfect only places the event as coming earlier in time. And you had to move to Past Continuous, because you are talking about a past event that occurred over a period of time.
compare
"I arrived, and noticed it had rained."
'arrived' is a Past Tense fact, devoid of temporal boundaries, and 'had rained' is a fact, also devoid of any temporal boundaries.

Ant_222 · Answer

Terryxpress"All the visible windows were black, and they ~~were~~ had been so for some time now."
But this does not mean that the windows are 'blacked out' 24/7, a opposed to after nightfall each evening.We see the circumstances behind 'no visible light from the windows' differently. I note that the author is speaking about 'visible light' not being seen, and that this was quite the regular occurrence now. Why refer to 'no visible light' being the norm - implying evening, when lights would be on - rather than 'ever since he blacked out the windows recently''.

Yes, I understand. It is the tendency of blacking out the windows every night that is in question. I should have said: «All the visible windows were black, as they ~~were~~ had been on the previous several nights.» — still using Past Perfect — which I think does a better job of preserving the original meaning.

Terryxpress2. We were had been friends since only recently.
since: in the intervening period between (the time mentioned) and the time under consideration, typically the present (2) is not grammatically correct. 'since' refers to an intervening period of time, from a point in the past, to some later point closer to NOW. This is covered by the Present Perfect, but not the Past Perfect.

But my # 1 was OK, and this #2 is just what I think #1 turns into when used in reported speech or a narration:
2a. I said that we had been friends since only recently.
2b. Back then we had been friends since only recently.
Am I not right?
It's a bad example anyway, because it usually takes some time to become friends and to realize that someone is truly your friend... Let's say — had known each other.

My whole point in providing these #1 & #2 was to show how tenses change when switching from the present time frame to a past one: Present Perfect turns into Past Perfect and Present Simple to Past Simple. This is called Sequence of Tenses.

Analogously, would I make a scientific guess if I supposed that one of the Fenners said these exact words to the leaders of the raiding party: «...This is always the case of late»? I can't help but want to chage it to «has always been the case of late», even taking into account your note about continuous vs. regular action, because even in case of a regular action Past Perfect seems to work:
«I had blacked out my windows every night until it was announced that the were no risk of an air raid.»

Terryxpress"When I went out it was raining heavily, and it had been all evening.". You had to include the time phrase 'all evening' to indicate a period of time...because the Past Perfect only places the event as coming earlier in time. And you had to move to Past Continuous, because you are talking about a past event that occurred over a period of time.

OK. Bad, irrelevant example. Here's a better one:
«When we arrived to London it looked like it had survived a flood. It had rained on the previous three nights.» — here we have a regular action, just like with the black windows in the paragraph discussed, and yet (to me) Past Perfect seems to be the only correct choice.

Terryxpress"I arrived, and noticed it had rained."
'arrived' is a Past Tense fact, devoid of temporal boundaries, and 'had rained' is a fact, also devoid of any temporal boundaries.

The only boundary (or constraint) I see is that rained happended earlier than arrived and noticed.

With a great big thanks for helping,
Anton

Past Simple vs. Past Perfect

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