Past perfect + until / before + fixed time

Question

Are these correct?I had arrived at the bus-stop before Andrew.I had read that book before the year 2000.I hadn't read that book until 2000.I hadn't ever been on a ferry until recently. Thanks.

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

hammerman1Are these correct?

Yes. Note, however, that when a before-clause follows, the simple past is just as good, if not better, and is usually used instead. So you may omit 'had' in your first two examples.

CJ

Hammerman1 · Answer

Thanks-

How about these two?

He hadn't finished his project by June.

He hadn't got ready by noon.

Is it ok to use simple past here too?

Dimsumexpress · Answer

Hi CJ,

Now I am beginning to doubt myself. Can I ask you a straight-forward past perfect related questions?

CalifJimNote, however, that when a before-clause follows, the simple past is just as good, if not better, and is usually used instead.

"I stopped by the bank begore I had dinner with Meg last night." This sounds completely normal to me, and I would not hesitate to say it. I could be wrong. However, when we are helping the learners to choose the correct tense, it would seem this method, instead of helping, would create more confusion as many don't have the luxaury to speak, listen and practice normal American English like we do. So that ability to determine under what condition simple past can be used, even though the context(s) clearly suggests past perfect became crucial. Clearly, my sentence is just that. Two past events: stopped by the bank before I had dinner. By the "perfect rules", would you use "I had stopped by the bank.." ? As I had also stated in my other earlier post to the learner, if a given context(s) was clear enough to the readers with using just past tense, past perfect is not needed. Thank you CJ for your thoughts.

DSE

Hammerman1 · Answer

How about this?

John was getting late for work, so he quickly made and ate a cheese sandwich for Breakfast.

Then he had hurriedly left for work before he realized that he had forgotten his wallet at home.

Or would simple past be better here, since the events in the 2nd sentence occur after the events in the 1st sentence?

CalifJim · Answer

hammerman1How about these two?
He hadn't finished his project by June.
He hadn't got ready by noon.
Is it ok to use simple past here too?

You mean like "He didn't finish his project by June".
You could, and some people say it that way, but it doesn't sound as good (in my opinion).

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

dimsumexpress"I stopped by the bank begore I had dinner with Meg last night." This sounds completely normal to me, and I would not hesitate to say it.

Right. You didn't say "I had stopped" because the before-clause made it very clear which event happened first.

dimsumexpressBy the "perfect rules", would you use "I had stopped by the bank.." ?

Well, yes. In many cases you use the past perfect in the clause that has the prior event. But as I commented in my post above, we don't have to use those rules when the word before tells us which event happened first.

dimsumexpressit would seem this method, instead of helping, would create more confusion as many don't have the luxaury to speak, listen and practice normal American English like we do.

It may create some confusion at first, but I don't think it's really that difficult to understand what before means and how that affects the use of the past perfect. As for practicing English, well, that's just something that we have no control over. Hopefully, learners will try to practice as much as they can, and that will gradually dispel the confusion.

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

hammerman1ohn was getting late for work, so he quickly made and ate a cheese sandwich for Breakfast.
Then he had hurriedly left for work before he realized that he had forgotten his wallet at home.

Simplifying,

John was late for work, so he had a quick breakfast and left for work in a hurry. When he got to work, he realized that he had forgotten his wallet at home. (I don't see that before is even necessary here.)

I recommend that you take a look at this

CJ

Hammerman1 · Answer

Thanks.

By the way, if the before-clause had been necessary, then would it have been ok to use past perfect there even though the events in the latter sentence happened after the events in the former senetence had taken place.

Hammerman1 · Answer

hold on. I fogot to read that thread you recommended.

Hammerman1 · Answer

I walked a mile before it began raining. (Past of the Present)
I had walked a mile before it began raining. (Past of the Past)

Isolated sentences with the past of the past (past perfect) usually make no sense. Their correct use depends on the context of a narrative.

"I set out for a walk yesterday. It looked cloudy, so I took an umbrella. At first I didn't need the umbrella. In fact, I walked a mile before it began raining. At that point I was glad that I had brought the umbrella because I needed it."

"I remember getting caught in a rainstorm years ago. I was driving home from work when the car broke down. Though it looked like it was about to rain, I decided to walk home since it was only a mile and a half from the car. As it turned out, I only had to walk a half mile in the downpour because I had walked a mile before it began raining."

In both uses of the "Past of the Past" (Past Perfect) [underlined above], the story has already passed the point in time where that past perfect event occurred. The past of the past is then used to 'correct' for the fact that the time line of the story has already passed the time when that event occurred. Moral of the story: If you always tell your listener what happened in the exact order it happened, you'll never need to use the past perfect tense!!!

It's probably the best post I have seen on this forum.

It's clarified a lot.

Thanks you very much.

Past perfect + until / before + fixed time

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