Past Perfect: to have or not to have

Question

Hi Everyone,I'm now working on past perfect.i know how and why to use it, but I was thinking whilst planning a lesson; why do we really need to use the past perfect?The simple past is the preferred choice amongst natives, and much easier to apply than the past perfect.I also get that you would use it in more formal conversations perhaps, but what do others feel about it?I don't have any particular grammar question, but just wanting people's thoughts about it generally.ThanksMiss * had thoughts *

Fivejedjon · Accepted Answer

We do need to use the past perfect in some situations, including:

1. to show the order of past events when context does not make this clear. Note the difference in meaning between:

When I arrived, she left,
When I arrived, she had left.

2. to show the counterfactuality of past situations:

I wish I had worked harder at school.

That's a start.

Cup cake · Answer

Thanks fivejedjon.

I actually do use the past perfect myself from time to time, but I've never stopped to think why. It's only now that I'm preparing yet another lesson around this that I'm thinking about its value. I've had students ask me why we need it if the simple past will do. As always, I've answered with the stock standard, 'it shows more than one event that finished in the past, blah blah blah'.

I think I'm moving into a different stage of my teaching; I want to know WHY and what can we eliminate to make teaching the language easier. Rules are necessary, but just less of them...

...maybe?

Many thanks.

Fivejedjon · Answer

Explanations about how and when we can use the past perfect given in coursebooks and student grammars are often correct and helpful. Unfortunately, many learners, and even some teachers, take these explanations to be directives that the past perfect must be used in certain situations.

This is true of any grammar, no matter how comprehensive. Modern grammarians can only attempt to describe how the majority of native speakers actually use the language, and attempt to find 'rules' which allow us to speak and write in a way that is generally considered correct.

My own rules on how we use tenses (given below) are few and simple and, as far as I have been able to discover after years of study, over 99% correct, The big question is: are they enough, in themselves, to help learners produce an appropriate form every time? The answwer to ntha question is undoubtedly: No. The apparent simplicity is deceptive.

Tenses and aspects in English are far less directly concerned with the traditional time-divisions than most people think.

The so-called 'present simple' is the default tense in English. Regardless of the time-refence of the situation denoted by the verb, we use the default tense unless we have a reason to use another tense or aspect,

The so-called 'past' tense and aspect forms are not primarily related to time. They are actually used to distance the situation in vividness in time, in degree of reality, and in degree of directness.

The progressive aspect is concerned with the limited duration of the situation denoted..

The perfect aspect is a retrospective aspect. The speaker has their feet planted at one point of time and are looking back at a situation that began at an earlier time.

The BE going to structure is best considered as a prospective aspect. The speaker has their feet planted at one point of time and are looking forward to s situation that begins at a later time.

I must point out that the ideas that I have presented above do not cover modals, which are best considered outside the traditional tense/aspect system. Although the ideas are relevant to conditional utterances, they are not sufficient to explain how conditional sentences work without reference to modals.

Cup cake · Answer

Many thanks for your explanation fivejedjon!

This is a really terrific post and very helpful for me. This is the first forum where I've seen anyone refer to the simple; the perfect and progressive as aspects rather than tenses. It's why I joined this forum. To help me improve my knowledge of 'teaching' the English language (which is an ENTIRELY different skill to just knowing it as a native, I would like to know that I'm comparing what I know with those who are real experts.

I've been a corporate trainer teaching psychology principles for a number of years and only came back to English teaching last year. I personally love English, far more than psych teaching, but there is still plenty of grammar points that I need to 'learn how to teach' in the best possible way.

I prefer to read as many explanations as possible to get a full understanding of something. It's interesting what you've said above about aspects being used to 'distance...etc'. I can relate to this fully. Yes, I'm an artist of over 35 years + and I see English as a piece of artwork, which is how I view your explanation. It's like sculpting; chipping away until you get the best form possible.

In fact, artists struggle with rules, because artists always see possibilities. Artists HATE rules by definition.
That's me to a T.

Thanks again.

CalifJim · Answer

Cup cakeI'm now working on past perfect.

Here are a few of my posts on that topic that may help. They deal with more than one aspect of the topic, in no particular order, as you will see.

Note these sub-topics:
the past perfect as the past of the present perfect;
the past perfect as the past of the simple past;
establishing a past point of view as a requirement for the use of the past perfect;
.... by using another tense (usually the past) within the same sentence where the past perfect occurs;
.... by using sentences in the preceding text, then using just the past perfect by itself in a sentence;
the past perfect as a flash-back device

Advanced [not included in the links above]:
the idiomatic "I hadn't thought of that" type of sentence;
the "counter-intuitive" use of past perfect in before-clauses (or implied before-clauses) (dangerous territory for beginners)

CJ

Cup cake · Answer

Great! Thanks CJ.

I will look at all of the links for sure. I do spend time 'flying around the site'. I try to research before asking a question, but I don't always have that much time.

Many thanks for sharing.

Past Perfect: to have or not to have

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