past perfect or simple + since

Question

Hi, If I’m not  mistaken,- I haven’t  seen him since he left ==&gt; he left, and I have not seen him until now.- I hadn’t  seen him since he left ==&gt; he left, and I had not seen him until a  certain point in time (let’s say I’m saying this after a party where we met  again).Now, I’m  having trouble with this sentence:‘Coastal  areas had been in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and  higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not  in force any more’(there’s no  such a need now, because there’s a new plan)1. would  you give ‘since’ a causal or a temporal meaning? (both of them hold true, but I’d  like to stress the latter) 2. if I  changed the sentence this way ‘Coastal areas were in urgent need for a  plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans,  since the LPSs were not in force any more,’ would it still be  grammatical in formal BrE? I doubt it … however, if it were, how would you  understand it?Please also let me know if there's something else which needs correcting. Thank you in advance!

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,

If I’m not mistaken,

- I haven’t seen him since he left ==> he left, and I have not seen him until now. Yes

- I hadn’t seen him since he left ==> he left, and I had not seen him until a certain point in time (let’s say I’m saying this after a party where we met again). Yes

Now, I’m having trouble with this sentence:

‘Coastal areas had been in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not in force any more’ Better to say 'in need of . . ' 'any more' is acceptable, but I prefer 'anymore'. Actually, in this case I'd say 'were no longer in force'.

(there’s no such a need now, because there’s a new plan)

1. would you give ‘since’ a causal or a temporal meaning? (both of them hold true, but I’d like to stress the latter) It seems completely causal in tone to me. If you want to make it perfectly clear, why don't you just say 'because' instead of 'since'?

2. if I changed the sentence this way ‘Coastal areas were in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not in force any more,’ would it still be grammatical in formal BrE? I doubt it … however, if it were, how would you understand it? Again, this seems fine to me in BrE, and causal in tone.

Here's another small comment. It's OK, I guess, but it doesn't sound good to me to say in urgent need for a plan (singular) other . . . than the . . . master plans (plural). Perhaps you could rephrase this, using something like 'in addition to' or 'to replace'?

Best wishes, Clive

Philip · Answer

Tanit
Hi,

If I’m not mistaken,

- I haven’t seen him since he left ==> he left, and I have not seen him until now. It's also possible that you still haven't seen him.

- I hadn’t seen him since he left ==> he left, and I had not seen him until a certain point in time (let’s say I’m saying this after a party where we met again).

Now, I’m having trouble with this sentence:

‘Coastal areas had been in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not in force any more’

(there’s no such a need now, because there’s a new plan)

1. would you give ‘since’ a causal or a temporal meaning? (both of them hold true, but I’d like to stress the latter)

2. if I changed the sentence this way ‘Coastal areas were in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not in force any more,’ would it still be grammatical in formal BrE? I doubt it … however, if it were, how would you understand it?

Please also let me know if there's something else which needs correcting.

Thank you in advance!

I can't speak to the question in #2: but I would use 'of' instead of a 'need for' in AmE.

Believer · Answer

TanitHi,

If I’m not mistaken,

- I haven’t seen him since he left ==> he left, and I have not seen him until now.

- I hadn’t seen him since he left ==> he left, and I had not seen him until a certain point in time (let’s say I’m saying this after a party where we met again).

Now, I’m having trouble with this sentence:

‘Coastal areas had been in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not in force any more’

(there’s no such a need now, because there’s a new plan)

Hi, My two cents might not buy anything these days but here is my two cents: I think 'had been' is a past perfect and is used to show that an activity was completed before another activity or time and with that focus in mind (at least for the part of his choosing this particular tense), he chose to use the past perfect and not a past tense (and to me, that changes the whole context of the writing). As to whether it sounds causal or temporal (I am not too sure what temporal means but if it is what I think it is), it sounds causal. I noticed others have provided excellent responses.

1. would you give ‘since’ a causal or a temporal meaning? (both of them hold true, but I’d like to stress the latter)

2. if I changed the sentence this way ‘Coastal areas were in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not in force any more,’ would it still be grammatical in formal BrE? I doubt it … however, if it were, how would you understand it?

Please also let me know if there's something else which needs correcting.

Thank you in advance!

GL2 · Answer

Here’s how I’d write it:

“Since the LPS’s were no longer in force, the coastal areas had been in urgent need of a plan that was broader in scope and higher in tier than the municipal master plan.

Note that “higher in tier” sounds a little odd. Maybe, “of a higher tier”? I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here, so maybe it’s fine as you have it.

Yankee · Answer

Tanit‘Coastal areas had been in urgent need for a plan other (broader in scope and higher in tier) than the municipal master plans, since the LPSs were not in force any more’

(there’s no such a need now, because there’s a new plan)

1. would you give ‘since’ a causal or a temporal meaning? (both of them hold true, but I’d like to stress the latter)

I agree that 'since' seems completely (only) causal in this sentence.

past perfect or simple + since

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