Past perfect! [It is NOT perfect at all!]

Question

Hello everybody!1. Why are there sentences where there are two past perfect in a sentence instead of  past perfect  and then past simple?*I should not use past perfect in sentences that has "before","when","after" . . . because its easy to determine which action occurred before the other, right?2. Why do I see sometimes in books or on the internet one sentence, only one action or event but its still written in the past perfect form?fortunately, i have an example:----------------1.       Such voices! He called out to them but they couldn't hear. He was desperate to get their attention when suddenly the shadow of a lone figure appeared from  among the trees.   Help had come at last. help came at last?WHY?3. Why is Past Perfect not to be used here? :This is the correct example (according to my teacher):5.       Have you seen my bag? I put it in the closet yesterday , but it is not there now.I do not understand why this may be wrong: Had you seen my bag? I put it in the closet yesterday , but it is not there now.THANKS!!

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

Picnic1. Why are there sentences where there are two past perfect in a sentence instead of past perfect and then past simple?

Maybe both of the actions took place before another past event. You would have to give examples before we could explain it fully.

Picnic2. Why do I see ... only one action or event but its still written in the past perfect form?
...
1. Such voices! He called out to them but they couldn't hear. He was desperate to get their attention when suddenly the shadow of a lone figure appeared from among the trees. Help had come at last.

You can have a case where only one event is mentioned in a sentence and that event happened or started to happen before the time being talked about in the previous sentences. You don't have to tell everything in one sentence. You can have a series of sentences in the past and then one sentence that took place before the time you were talking about. In this case, people had come to help before the speaker realized it.

Picnic3. Why is Past Perfect not to be used here? ...
Have you seen my bag? I put it in the closet yesterday , but it is not there now.

Because you are looking for the bag now, and your putting it in the closet happened before this moment when you are speaking about it. The reference time (the time your mind is focused on) is the present moment.

PicnicI do not understand why this may be wrong:

Had you seen my bag? I put it in the closet yesterday , but it is not there now.

It's not completely wrong. It's just that its reference time is in the past.

Had you seen my bag? (yesterday, when I told you it was missing) I had put it in the closet on the previous day, but it was not there when I looked for it. (yesterday)

We don't usually ask questions this way, however, because it's not often we want to know about what was seen or done before some other past event. Usually the past perfect is used to tell what happened.

____________

So when the time reference is the present and you are acting in real time:

-- I'm looking for my bag. Can't you find it for me?

-- Sorry. I haven't seen it anywhere.

And when the time reference is the past and you're telling a story of what happened:

I was looking for my bag, and no one could find it for me. No one had seen it anywhere. (But eventually someone found it, so I have it again now.)

Reference time: Present

................present perfect .................present ...............

Reference time: Past

...............past perfect ..................past .................

For more on the past perfect,

see
see
see

CJ

Picnic · Answer

CalifJimMaybe both of the actions took place before another past event. You would have to give examples before we could explain it fully.

Here are example:

"jeanie had died only an hour before. in their grief Jeanie's parents had found one small ray of hope - their daughter would live on through Sheree."

Or

"At least she had had the comfort of a friend during those long weeks, Jeanie, a lively girl Sheree's age with whom she had shared her secrets and dreams and teen magazines."

Or from a book I have been reading:

"He was swelled with a tale he had heard from a reliable friend, who had heard it from a truthful cavalryman, who had heard it from his trustworthy brother, one of the orderlies at division
headquarters. He adopted the important air of a herald in red and gold."

CalifJimBecause you are looking for the bag now, and your putting it in the closet happened before this moment when you are speaking about it. The reference time (the time your mind is focused on) is the present moment.

CalifJimHad you seen my bag? I put it in the closet yesterday , but it is not there now.

CalifJimIt's not completely wrong. It's just that its reference time is in the past.

Had you seen my bag? (yesterday, when I told you it was missing) I had put it in the closet on the previous day, but it was not there when I looked for it. (yesterday)

We don't usually ask questions this way, however, because it's not often we want to know about what was seen or done before some other past event. Usually the past perfect is used to tell what happened.
____________

So when the time reference is the present and you are acting in real time:

-- I'm looking for my bag. Can't you find it for me?
-- Sorry. I haven't seen it anywhere.

And when the time reference is the past and you're telling a story of what happened:

I was looking for my bag, and no one could find it for me. No one had seen it anywhere. (But eventually someone found it, so I have it again now.)

Reference time: Present

................present perfect .................present ...............

Reference time: Past

...............past perfect ..................past .................

For more on the past perfect,

see Re: simple past and past perfect
see Re: past perfect useage
see Re: Past perfect tense

CJ

but there are still two events or actions seen and put, and there are the past perfect rules...
is this an exceptional case (questions)?

CalifJim · Answer

Picnic"jeanie had died only an hour before. in their grief Jeanie's parents had found one small ray of hope - their daughter would live on through Sheree."

Or

"At least she had had the comfort of a friend during those long weeks, Jeanie, a lively girl Sheree's age with whom she had shared her secrets and dreams and teen magazines."

Or from a book I have been reading:

"He was swelled with a tale he had heard from a reliable friend, who had heard it from a truthful cavalryman, who had heard it from his trustworthy brother, one of the orderlies at division
headquarters. He adopted the important air of a herald in red and gold."

The situations and actions mentioned in the past perfect happened at a time more remote in the past than the situations and actions mentioned in the simple past. That's all there is to it. It's not as complicated as you seem to think.

Picnicthere are still two events or actions seen and put, and there are the past perfect rules...
is this an exceptional case (questions)?

The basic principle is as I described above. I don't see any exceptional cases here. Maybe the "past perfect rules" you are reading are misstated or maybe you have some misunderstanding about what they mean. Past perfect situations and actions occur before past simple situations and actions. I don't know what other "rule" you are talking about, but there are no rules about how many actions can occur before how many other actions. You can have many actions that occurred in the past and many that occurred in an even more remote past.

CJ

Picnic · Answer

If there are more than one actions or events that occurred at a time more remote in the past than the past perfect they should also be written in the past perfect form?

If I'm correct, I think I understand it.

Thank you very much!

Englishmaven · Answer

1. The word "before" could correctly be in the sentence.
He had called before I arrived.
"Before" is in the other clause.

2. The shadow was there when you saw it, so it was already there. Help had come before you realized it, even if it was just a little bit before.

3. There is no error in the sentences.

Have you seen my bag? I put it in the closet yesterday, but it is not there now.

You are right.

Picnic · Answer

Its correct to say before et cetera in a past simple sentence but its unnecessary, you may understand which is first if you see before: "it has/had happened before..."

right?
=)

CalifJim · Answer

PicnicIf there are more than one actions or events that occurred at a time more remote in the past than the past perfect they should also be written in the past perfect form?If I'm correct, I think I understand it.Thank you very much!

Yes. That's right. I think you understand it.

CJ

Picnic · Answer

Very good. I will get the test and then ask if i have problems

Past perfect! [It is NOT perfect at all!]

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