Past Perfect and "until": I waited until the rain had stopped.

Question

Hi,I have read, with great interest, CJ's explanation of the "non-completion" use of the past perfect in sentences like "He ordered us back to work before we had finished our meal." If I understand correctly, this use is similar to the use of the past perfect here:I had hoped to take pictures from the cable car, but it was so foggy we couldn't see anything.(= I hoped to take pictures, but I didn't)I wonder if you could explain the use of the past perfect in the following sentence taken from "Practical English Usage":I waited until the rain had stopped.Best regards,AV

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

Arwee VamvanijI waited until the rain had stopped.

'had stopped' is an alternate for 'stopped', which is also completely adequate and correct. "wait until" can take either the non-perfect or the perfect form when the completion of an action is what is being waited for.

I'll wait until they [prepare / have prepared] the meal.
Laura waited until the last train [arrived / had arrived].
We may have to wait until the main office [opens / has opened].

The non-perfect form is used most of the time.

CJ

Naweewra · Answer

Thank you, CJ.

But which event comes first: wait or stop?

Isn't the non-perfect "stopped" more logical?

Grammarfreak · Answer

Arwee VamvanijBut which event comes first: wait or stop? Arwee VamvanijIsn't the non-perfect "stopped" more logical?

Here is my two cents. I don't know if this makes sense to you?

I waited until the rain had stopped. This says, while you were waiting, the rain did not stop. So it is a no-rainer. Conversely, the rain stopped after I had waited (inside of a department store for an hour ). So rain " stoppped " first.

That said, it is acceptable to use simple past for both verbs: " I waited until the rain stopped".

CalifJim · Answer

Arwee VamvanijBut which event comes first: wait or stop?

???

If the rain stops, the waiting stops. You can't wait for the rain to stop after the rain stops! So the wait comes first. Waiting for an event to happen has the curious property that the waiting never continues once the awaited event occurs.

Arwee VamvanijIsn't the non-perfect "stopped" more logical?

I would not say so. The two forms are equivalent in terms of logic. It depends a great deal on the speaker's viewpoint regarding the context that has been established previously.

The idea of "the rain stopped" may itself be before something else mentioned previously in a narrative in the past tense. In that case, "had stopped" might be more appropriate. Otherwise, "stopped" should be fine.

CJ

Past Perfect and "until": I waited until the rain had stopped.

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