Past Perfect

Question

Hi, Can you help me?Is the sentence correct?My friends arrived before I had finished my homework. Thanks,Ann

Terryxpress · Accepted Answer

Yes. And so is
My friends arrived before I finished by homework.

I prefer, and use, the Past Perfect construction with 'before' and 'after'.

Canadian45 · Answer

Anonymous ?Is the sentence correct?

My friends arrived before I had finished my homework.

My friends had arrived before I finished my homework.

My friends arrived beofore I finished my homewoork.

http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html

Terryxpress · Answer

Michael Swan: "Practical English Usage" (Oxford University Press)
Page 84.
He went out before I had finished my sentence.
A Past Perfect tense can refer to a time later than the action of the main verb.
.............................................................
I reiterate, both Simple Past and Past Perfect are correct. I prefer Past Perfect, because, as with other uses of the Past Perfect (as in its use occurring in a correct time sequence of actions/events) it emphasizes the disjuncture between two events.

The above does not hold when specific times are mentioned e.g. in 1993, as is being referred to in the sentences used on the website quoted in the preceding post.

Canadian45 · Answer

TerryxpressMichael Swan: "Practical English Usage" (Oxford University Press)Page 84.He went out before I had finished my sentence.A Past Perfect tense can refer to a time later than the action of the main verb..............................................................I reiterate, both Simple Past and Past Perfect are correct. I prefer Past Perfect.

If that is so, it would seem that using past perfect with "before" and 'after" is quite unnecessary, and more trouble than it's worth.
Past perfect is supposedly used to tell us which action happened first. I could be wrong, but I think in American English past perfect is only used with the earlier action.

When I arrived they had finished the work.

Everlastinghope · Answer

canadian45 Anonymous ?Is the sentence correct?My friends arrived before I had finished my homework. My friends had arrived before I finished my homework. My friends arrived beofore I finished my homewoork. http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html

As Terry explained;I read Michael Swan's book of Practical English Usage about the use of past perfect with before.There's an exception and special way to use "before".It can refer to a later action which was NOT completed,or which was NOT done in time.
Consider these two sentences :

He died before I had had a chance to speak to him or He died before I had a chance to speak to him (both of them are correct;not completed action)
She went out before I had realized what was happening. or She went out before I realized what was happening (both of them are correct;not done in time)

Thus, the sentence "My friends arrived before I had finished my homework." is correct.

Canadian45 · Answer

everlastinghope said.... Thus, the sentence "My friends arrived before I had finished my homework." is correct.
If you want to say it's correct, that's up to you. I don't think it's correct.
And of course perfect tense is not necessary there. But as you may know, speakers of British English are very fond of perfect tense. So if you (want to) speak British English, you can follow them and use perfect tense their way.

Everlastinghope · Answer

canadian45If you want to say it's correct, that's up to you. I don't think it's correct.

It's not up to me but up to the rule that Michael Swan wrote in his book of grammar.I do know that past perfect is used for early actions (before the past actions),but there are always excveptions and other ways.

canadian45And of course perfect tense is not necessary there. But as you may know, speakers of British English are very fond of perfect tense. So if you (want to) speak British English, you can follow them and use perfect tense their way.

What I wanted to do is to show that there are two ways to say the sentence.I didn't say it's an obligation to follow British or American English.As far as my students are concerned,I always show them both sides so that they won't wonder which one is correct and which one is not.

Dimsumexpress · Answer

Just my two cents...
As Terry had commented in previous thread, Both simple past and perfect are correct. In everyday context, the norm is to avoid past perfect if possible, especially when the context was expressed clearly with conjunctions of time like: Before, after, while, during, and when etc to identify the order of events. Past perfect still has its purposes when are are narrating multiple events in the past, writing a documentary or describing historical events, Of course, many swear by the "book" and I agree the book is correct, but I also think the traditional approach toward past perfect has been more or less simplified in our daily use. If the events are clear, we may opt out past perfect.

I went to the bank before I went to work. - Perfectly understood without past perfect.

She worked two years at IBM as an intern in Toronto before she transferred to the US headquarters 3 years ago.

CalifJim · Answer

canadian45Past perfect is supposedly used to tell us which action happened first.

Yes, but that is not its only use.

canadian45I could be wrong, but I think in American English past perfect is only used with the earlier action.

As an American I can say that this comment about AmE is wrong. Everlasting's comment, borrowed from Swan, is correct in saying that the past perfect is used after "before" to indicate interrupted actions - actions that failed to come to completion.

See

CJ

Canadian45 · Answer

CalifJimcanadian45 Past perfect is supposedly used to tell us which action happened first.

Yes, but that is not its only use.
canadian45 I could be wrong, but I think in American English past perfect is only used with the earlier action.
-----------------------------------------------

As an American I can say that this comment about AmE is wrong. Do you mean the comment that PP is only used with the earlier action?
By the way, I usually say 'North American English'. But if one says that N A English is essentially American English, I too then am a speaker of American English.

Everlasting's comment, borrowed from Swan, is correct in saying that the past perfect is used after "before" to indicate interrupted actions - actions that failed to come to completion.See Past Perfect "b4" Simple PastCJ
Again, the question is whether the past perfect tense is only to be used with the earlier action or whether it can instead be used with the later action.

I don't have Swan's book and I am not swayed by what he says about this question, because the use of perfect tense is one of the areas in which the two Englishes differ, and I speak N A English. (Of course both Englishes use perfect tense.)
So I would rather follow a local grammarian who writes "The past perfect tense (with "had") is used for a past action that occurred before another past action."
Also, an admittedly rather brief online search of past perfect tense only showed use of the p p with the earlier action or attempted action.

Past Perfect

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