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Hereward Posted 21 years ago
Grammar
past perfect
Hi. Why is the past perfect used here?
'The nazi party first met in 1921. The nightmare had begun.'
I know it's right but I can't see the logic for using this tense. Logically it ought to be past simple but, using the past simple requires a time marker of some kind - like 'That was the point at which the nightmare began'.Thanks.
'The nazi party first met in 1921. The nightmare had begun.'
I know it's right but I can't see the logic for using this tense. Logically it ought to be past simple but, using the past simple requires a time marker of some kind - like 'That was the point at which the nightmare began'.Thanks.
Top answer
Hello, Hereward, welcome to the English Forums! It could have been siple past had the sentence been "the nightmare began in 1921, when the party first met/... began when the party first met, in 1921".
- Hello, Hereward, welcome to the English Forums!
- It could have been siple past had the sentence been "the nightmare began in 1921, when the party first met/...
- began when the party first met, in 1921".
- The moment when the nightmare began is well set in the past, in 1921.
- "The nightmare had begun" to me means that it started then, but the writer wants to say that it didn't stop then, that it's still going on, hasn't stopped yet.
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11 Answers
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Hello, Hereward, welcome to the English Forums!
It could have been siple past had the sentence been "the nightmare began in 1921, when the party first met/... began when the party first met, in 1921". The moment when the nightmare began is well set in the past, in 1921.
"The nightmare had begun" to me means that it started then, but the writer wants to say that it didn't stop the
It could have been siple past had the sentence been "the nightmare began in 1921, when the party first met/... began when the party first met, in 1921". The moment when the nightmare began is well set in the past, in 1921.
"The nightmare had begun" to me means that it started then, but the writer wants to say that it didn't stop the
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PieanneHello, Hereward, welcome to the English Forums!
It could have been siple past had the sentence been "the nightmare began in 1921, when the party first met/... began when the party first met, in 1921". The moment when the nightmare began is well set in the past, in 1921.
"The nightmare had begun" to me means that it started then, but the writer wan
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Thanks for the help. I think that something peculiar happens when using verbs like - start, begin, finish, end, complete, commence. They need the past perfect in certain situations..
For instance: 'The last bullet of the war was fired on August 8th 1945. The nightmare had ended'.
Compare with: 'The last bullet of the war was fired on August 8th 1945. The nightmare ended abrupt
For instance: 'The last bullet of the war was fired on August 8th 1945. The nightmare had ended'.
Compare with: 'The last bullet of the war was fired on August 8th 1945. The nightmare ended abrupt
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I wonder whether we can think of the past perfect in such examples as expressing 'ongoingness', rather than a strict sequence of events.
We can say:
1. The Shoot-All-Grammarians Party holds its first meeting today. The nightmare has begun.
The nightmare here resides in the situation as a whole; the present perfect expresses its 'ongoingness'.
If we move the ten
We can say:
1. The Shoot-All-Grammarians Party holds its first meeting today. The nightmare has begun.
The nightmare here resides in the situation as a whole; the present perfect expresses its 'ongoingness'.
If we move the ten
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Hello Hereward
I'm an English learner from Japan. If you don't mind it, I would like to put in my two cents on your question.
'Begin' is a verb denoting an activity that takes place at a particular time and accomplishes instantaneously. It's just like 'get up' or 'wake up'. So I don't think 'begin' behaves exceptionally in the tense relation.
I in
I'm an English learner from Japan. If you don't mind it, I would like to put in my two cents on your question.
'Begin' is a verb denoting an activity that takes place at a particular time and accomplishes instantaneously. It's just like 'get up' or 'wake up'. So I don't think 'begin' behaves exceptionally in the tense relation.
I in
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Hello Paco
That's quite all right! Sorry I barged in.
It is a peculiar usage: there's something melodramatic (or maybe simply literary) about it.
I'm not sure how; but the sentence seems to convey a sense that the nightmare began with the first meeting, rather than before the meeting. As your analysis shows, this is contrary to what the grammar literally su
That's quite all right! Sorry I barged in.
It is a peculiar usage: there's something melodramatic (or maybe simply literary) about it.
I'm not sure how; but the sentence seems to convey a sense that the nightmare began with the first meeting, rather than before the meeting. As your analysis shows, this is contrary to what the grammar literally su
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{quote from Hereward}
I think that something peculiar happens when using verbs like - start, begin, finish, end, complete, commence. They need the past perfect in certain situations.
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Hello all. I didn't pay much attention to peculiarity of those 'phasal verbs.' Espacially in the narrative, yes, indeed, they do bear some peculiar role. Th
I think that something peculiar happens when using verbs like - start, begin, finish, end, complete, commence. They need the past perfect in certain situations.
?????????????????????????????????????????????
Hello all. I didn't pay much attention to peculiarity of those 'phasal verbs.' Espacially in the narrative, yes, indeed, they do bear some peculiar role. Th
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Hello MrP
I might wrong in using 'before'. Couldn't we suppose the original sentence carries the sense like 'The nightmare had begun no sooner than that'?
If 'X had begun at the time Y took place' really implies 'X was to follow Y and last', the usage of 'begin' should be truly idiomatic. However, I've never heard that kind of usage for 'begin' and I cannot find any explanation
I might wrong in using 'before'. Couldn't we suppose the original sentence carries the sense like 'The nightmare had begun no sooner than that'?
If 'X had begun at the time Y took place' really implies 'X was to follow Y and last', the usage of 'begin' should be truly idiomatic. However, I've never heard that kind of usage for 'begin' and I cannot find any explanation
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Looking over the replies, I think that it's something to do with the writer's focus.
The writer isn't thinking about 1921 but, about the consequencies. The focus is later - say the second world war.
My grammar book says that the auxiliary of the perfect ('have') is used when the writer
is writing about something that is before the main focus.
'I've dropped my book'. The boo
The writer isn't thinking about 1921 but, about the consequencies. The focus is later - say the second world war.
My grammar book says that the auxiliary of the perfect ('have') is used when the writer
is writing about something that is before the main focus.
'I've dropped my book'. The boo
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Hello
I have pondered it again. And I also came to think this 'X had begun' is the past form of the present perfect 'X has begun', which connotes the accomplishment of the activity 'begin' at the moment.
paco
I have pondered it again. And I also came to think this 'X had begun' is the past form of the present perfect 'X has begun', which connotes the accomplishment of the activity 'begin' at the moment.
paco
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