Past Habit would in complex clause

Question

I want to say that the bizarre things old age did to Andrew's dad occurred regularly in the past. However, the bizarre things still occur at the time this was written.

Considering the underlined above, which is the correct verb form?

Andrew would always laugh about the bizarre things old age had done/has done/would do to his dad.

Avangi · Accepted Answer

English 1b3Andrew would always laugh about the bizarre things old age had done/has done/would do to his dad.

Has done.

(Sorry. I misread, and had to do an about face.)

CalifJim · Answer

English 1b3occurred regularly in the past. [ and ] still occur at the time this was written.

I think you're aiming at this:

Andrew would always laugh about the bizarre things old age had been doing to his dad.

CJ

English 1b3 · Answer

CalifJimI think you're aiming at this:Andrew would always laugh about the bizarre things old age had been doing to his dad.

So yours states Andrew used to laugh about it, but no longer does. That's what I want. And 'had been doing' suggests the bizarre things happened but doesn't rule out the fact they still occur in the present, correct?

Did you choose the progressive to indicate that the bizarre things old age did exist more than once in the past? What is wrong with using 'would' to indicate this (as this too suggests a past habit and is consistent with 'would laugh')?

CalifJim · Answer

English 1b3doesn't rule out the fact they still occur in the present, correct?

Strictly speaking, no, but you said at the time this was written, not the present. I assume it was written in the past, certainly before any of us could read it!

English 1b3Did you choose the progressive to indicate that the bizarre things old age did exist more than once in the past?

Yes, I suppose so. I didn't think about it very deeply.

English 1b3What is wrong with using 'would' to indicate this (as this too suggests a past habit and is consistent with 'would laugh')?

'would do' also works, but it's harder to imagine it as a past habit because old age isn't an agent that can have habits, and besides, the reader might easily and wrongly think you meant 'would do later', that is, interpret the would as the future of the past rather than as an indicator of past habits.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

What's wrong with the original option, "has done"?

- A.

CalifJim · Answer

AvangiWhat's wrong with the original option, "has done"? - A.

To my ear it doesn't go with 'would laugh'.

'would laugh' would cover only some period in the past, say all of last month.
'has done' would cover the time all the way to the moment of saying (writing) the statement, including this month so far.

Can you have "would laugh last month" about what something "has done" this month? To me it sounds like

I used to feel terrible about what I have said to Donald about his hair.

And that sounds wrong to me. Not to you?

CJ

Avangi · Answer

CalifJimNot to you?

au contraire!

Perhaps I've misunderstood again.
I thought the game was to allow that the dad continues to do these things, but that the feeling terrible was in some remote time.

E 1b3: So yours states Andrew used to laugh about it, but no longer does. That's what I want.

The poor guy is still nuts, but it doesn't bother me anymore. I've gotten over it.

Edit. Okay, he used to joke about it but now he takes it seriously. (I'll never get it right!)

English 1b3 · Answer

CalifJimStrictly speaking, no, but you said at the time this was written, not the present. I assume it was written in the past, certainly before any of us could read it!

OK, I got confused. I think. What I mean is the time it was spoken. But how does that even change your answer, if I mean the time it was spoken or the present (question mark key is not working)

CalifJim'would do' also works, but it's harder to imagine it as a past habit because old age isn't an agent that can have habits,

Topic sentence: Andrew would always laugh about the bizarre things old age would do to his dad.

I think I get you. It`s the `things` (that old age would do) that are past habits, but the old age itself can`t `do` things. Is that what you mean (question mark)

CalifJim · Answer

English 1b3But how does that even change your answer, if I mean the time it was spoken or the present

I am not sure I'm following you.

Andrew would laugh is farther past than the moment of its utterance, whether it was uttered years ago or just now.
Andrew laughs is the corresponding present. Andrew currently has the habit of laughing.

what old age {do} can be

1 posterior to the laughing
2 contemporaneous with the laughing
3 anterior to the laughing

So theoretically there should be six combinations.

1 Andrew laughs at what old age [will / is going to] do to his dad.
2 Andrew laughs at what old age [does / is doing] to his dad.
3 Andrew laughs at what old age [has done / has been doing] to his dad.
4 Andrew laughed at what old age [would / was going to] do to his dad.
5 Andrew laughed at what old age [did / was doing] to his dad.
6 Andrew laughed at what old age [had done / had been doing] to his dad.

It's 4 that's the problem. You want the 'would' to indicate a past habit, but it already (more strongly, I think) indicates a future of the past in this context. To avoid the ambiguity you might say 'used to do to his dad', which would put the sentence in category 6, which is, I think, what you want.
______________________

English 1b3but the old age itself can`t `do` things. Is that what you mean (question mark)

Yes.

CJ

English 1b3 · Answer

Hi CJ,

I understand what you`re saying about how would may be incorrectly interpreted in the topic sentence.

My question was about your earlier reply, however:

You thought this is how I wanted the sentence written:

Andrew would always laugh about the bizarre things old age had been doing to his dad.

I then wanted to clear up what `had been doing` conveyed, so I asked,

'had been doing' suggests the bizarre things happened but doesn't rule out the fact they still occur in the present, correct?

You then replied (below), which is what I am confused about. I got confused between moment of utterance vs present time, but whether I said time of utterance or present, how does that affect your answer.. Maybe I`m still confused between the moment of utterance vs present. Can`t the moment of utterance (time it was written) be past or present depending on what tense you are writing in...

Strictly speaking, no, but you said at the time this was written, not the present. I assume it was written in the past, certainly before any of us could read it!

Past Habit would in complex clause

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