Passive Voice Structure or PP as an Adjective?

Question

My friend and I have an argument over this sentence:

The earliest histories were not written, but oral – songs and sagas such as the battle and adventure tales told by the poet Homer in the Iliad and Odyssey.

Now the thing is that I believe written is just an adjective in form of a past participle, but my friend thinks this is a passive structure.

What do you think?

KhoshtipMan · Accepted Answer

HMan adjective

An adjective of what noun?
To me too, it is a passive voice. "The early histories were not written (by historians), but ...".

HM · Answer

First of all, thanks for your reply.

Well lets say we change written with an obvious adjective like interesting or just oral and have these sentences:

The earliest histories were not interesting ...
The earliest histories were not oral ...

I think these sentences are still grammatically correct, and there is no confusion about being passive voice.
In my mind, interesting or written (in contrast with oral) describe histories which is a noun.

Am I right?

Fivejedjon · Answer

There is frequently no clear answer to a question such as this. The listener/reader is free to interpret "The earliest histories were not written" as "The earliest histories were not written (down) by anybody" [passive] or "the earliest histories did not appear in written form [adjective]. It doesn't really matter.

HM · Answer

fivejedjonThere is frequently no clear answer to a question such as this. The listener/reader is free to interpret "The earliest histories were not written" as "The earliest histories were not written (down) by anybody" [passive] or "the earliest histories did not appear in written form [adjective]. It doesn't really matter.

I get your point and I agree. However, I would like to ask you whether having "but oral" after "written" in this particular sentence removes any doubt about written being an adjective?

The earliest histories were not written, but oral– songs and sagas such as the battle and adventure tales told by the poet Homer in the Iliad and Odyssey.

Fivejedjon · Answer

Nothing can remove all doubt. If one grammarian says it's a past participle functioning as part pf a passive construction and another says it's a past participle functioning as a modifier (i.e., is an adjective), neither can 'prove' that their opinion is correct.

HM · Answer

fivejedjonNothing can remove all doubt. If one grammarian says it's a past participle functioning as part pf a passive construction and another says it's a past participle functioning as a modifier (i.e., is an adjective), neither can 'prove' that their opinion is correct.

Thank you very much.

CalifJim · Answer

HMnot written, but oral

One of the tests to see if a past participle is an adjective is coordination with a "real" adjective, and that's what you have here. For this reason, I think the needle is hovering closer to the adjective interpretation than to the verb interpretation.

On the other hand, another test for an adjective is to see if "very" can be applied, and "very written" doesn't work well here, so that argues against the adjective interpretation. Now the needle is backing away a little from the adjective interpretation.

If it had been "not written, but sung", you'd be on shakier ground claiming that 'written' was an adjective. As is, you have some evidence to claim "adjective", but this is not a central case of a past participle adjective (Tom is interested in sports cars).

CJ

HM · Answer

CalifJim One of the tests to see if a past participle is an adjective is coordination with a "real" adjective, and that's what you have here. For this reason, I think the needle is hovering closer to the adjective interpretation than to the verb interpretation.On the other hand, another test for an adjective is to see if "very" can be applied, and "very written" doesn't work well here, so that argues against the adjective interpretation. Now the needle is backing away a little from the adjective interpretation.If it had been "not written, but sung", you'd be on shakier ground claiming that 'written' was an adjective. As is, you have some evidence to claim "adjective", but this is not a central case of a past participle adjective (Tom is interested in sports cars).CJ

Thank you for your interesting and informative post.
I guess it is safe to say that in this case there is no definite answer.

The fact is that my friend and I are English Translation students, and while translating this sentence we had this argument. I would like to tell you that considering 'written' as an adjective helps us to find a proper equivalent in our target language, resulting in a better translation of the source text.

CalifJim · Answer

HMI would like to tell you that considering 'written' as an adjective helps us to find a proper equivalent in our target language, resulting in a better translation of the source text.

Then go for it!

Out of curiosity, is the target language Kazakh or Russian or something else?

CJ

HM · Answer

CalifJim Out of curiosity, is the target language Kazakh or Russian or something else?CJ

No,I know nothing about Kazakh or Russian. I just do/study translation from English to Persian, and vice versa.

Passive Voice Structure or PP as an Adjective?

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Passive Voice Structure or PP as an Adjective?

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