Passive or participle?

Question

HiI am surrounded by my friends.That 'surrounded,' is it a past participle of the passive structure, or an adjective?I am surrounded with my friends.I am surrounded by my friends.Do these sentences convey differerent ideas?Thanks.

Avangi · Accepted Answer

IMHO this would be a classic example of an expression which may be taken as passive voice or predicate adjective without consequence.

The use of "with" would be less likely to include a "friendly intervention," such as hauling you forcibly off to the drug rehab.

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks, Avi

With 'by,' we expres a state;with 'with' an action, right?
Drug rehab? [Y]

Yankee · Answer

AvangiThe use of "with" would be less likely to include a "friendly intervention," such as hauling you forcibly off to the drug rehab.

Hi Avangi

I don't sense that sort of difference at all. First of all, I would say that "surrounded by" is by far the more common wording.
My own gut feeling says that any use of "with" would tend to be suggestive of a looser sort of "surrounded by" -- i.e. perhaps the boundaries are somewhat less clearly defined.

Avangi · Answer

Yankee use of "with" would tend to be suggestive of a looser sort of "surrounded by" -- i.e. perhaps the boundaries are somewhat less clearly defined.

Hi, Amy.
I agree with this part. (That's why you're not worried they're about to grab you.)

I have this feeling that "with" suggests they're present in a supportive role, and that "you" are not just one of the gang, on this particular occasion.

I'll grant that "by" would be more popular in a death-bed scene.

I think "with" would be more appropriate if a rival gang were about to do harm to you personally.

Yankee · Answer

Ah, now I see what you were driving at, Avangi.

One more thing my gut feeling is telling me is that I don't think I would ever actually say "I am surrounded with my friends." To me, that sounds awkward and unnatural. I'd be more likely to use "surrounded with" in a sentence such as this: "I am surrounded with love".

CalifJim · Answer

AnonymousI am surrounded by my friends.

That 'surrounded,' is it a past participle of the passive structure, or an adjective?

This is not likely to be a passive structure unless it means that your friends habitually get into a group and perform the action of approaching you from all directions and coming to stand or sit around you, and native speakers would almost never think of that sort of action when reading this sentence.

It's an adjective.

CJ

Avangi · Answer

Anonymous With 'by,' we expres a state;with 'with' an action, right?

Better suspend judgement, Anon. I think CJ is saying we shouldn't use "to surround" transitively. I'll have to try to think this through.

If by "state" you're referring to the adjective use and by "action" you're referring to the verb use, then, no, that isn't exactly what I was trying to convey. I think "by" is the preposition favored in passive transformations. "Jack loves Mary." "Mary is loved by Jack."

I was thinking of an active voice sentence, such as "My friends surround me," and thinking this could undergo a passive transformation such as, "I am surrounded by/with my friends." My remarks about "with" vs. "by" were based strictly on experience. I realize now that only "by" may be used in such transformations.

But I think CJ is objecting to the use of the verb, saying that friends would not perform such an action, active or passive.

Edit. Yankee, I guess "with my friends" does sound a little awkward.

For some reason, when I read that sentence (OP) I immediately pictured my grandfather's huge (so it seemed at the time) dining room table at Thanksgiving time, with more cousins than I can now remember. My grandmother always invited a few homeless people as well. Somehow "with friends" felt appropriate. I think "surrounded by friends" would place me with the turkey.

Yankee · Answer

I don't think Jim is saying that the verb "surround" cannot be used transitively. I think his point was that the past participle "surrounded" tends to function as an adjective.  I think that is probably true especially in the simple present tense.

CalifJim · Answer

Avangi I think CJ is saying we shouldn't use "to surround" transitively.

Not at all.

The police slowly surrounded the thieves until there was no escape.

The thieves were surrounded. (passive) = The action of the police slowly placing themselves in positions around the thieves took place.

The thieves were surrounded. (adjective) = (can only be in effect after the action takes place) The thieves are now in the state of being located within a circle of police.

You can add by the police in either case. It doesn't resolve the ambiguity. But as an isolated sentence only the adjective meaning seems to come to mind -- well, to my mind anyway!
___

I'll admit there's also the stative verb surround. My friends surround me. =~ My friends are standing around me. (no action; configuration of people only).

But I wasn't referring to that usage at all in my previous post -- only the dynamic meaning of "putting (something, oneself, ...) in the position of being around (something else)". In the dynamic meaning My friends surround me is a statement about a habitual action performed on me by my friends. (Cf. My friends greet me every time they see me.) That's why its passive I am surrounded by my friends is also a habitual action (surround being taken as a dynamic verb).

I don't think my brain is ready to undertake an analysis of what happens when you put a stative transitive in the passive.

My friends surround me. > I am surrounded by my friends.
The glass contains water. > Water is contained by the glass.
All matter occupies space. > Space is occupied by all matter.

The resulting past participles seem to resist classification as either verbs or adjectives, but adjective seems the better choice -- for now. I'll have to read up on this!

CJ

Avangi · Answer

I'm sure you're right, Yankee.  I sometimes try to place myself in the questioner's shoes and try to figure out what he's asking.  Then the answers seem to apply to all cases.

Passive or participle?

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